1) I lived in the UK for seven years in Colchester. The line behind my house had very little frieght traffic on it. The US and Canadian lines are primarily freight, whereas the UK is primarily passenger.

I wonder if that has something to do with the difference?

To echo PCook's comments, I once heard of an interesting method for funding a restoration project: beat up all the photographers who tell you what you are doing wrong, steal their cameras, sell said cameras and use the proceeds for your project.

Favorite questions/comments include "What color are you going to paint it when its done?", and with reference to the LIRR 'powerpacks', "All you have to do is put the reverser back in and wire up the traction motors".

"Just wire it up". Yup, real easy to say when they do not have to buy or run the cables.

I am reminded of the movie "Das Boot" where the chief is trying to bypass some battery cells and he says "I need some wire". They hand him some wire that looks like it might have been a 12 volt battery cable from a pickup truck. "That will do".

Yes, for the split second before it melts........

PC

Points regarding size are understood; but do they have one-piece cylinder/saddle/frame castings by General Steel, along with Boxpox wheels? The J-1a did; and that along with being a little larger makes what is a favorite subject for a "brand new" locomotive more difficult than it's British counterpart.

The fact remains that ANY such "replication" of a reasonably modern (20th century) steam locomotive in the 21st century will--as the UK's A1 Tornado project did--involve strategic compromises in engineering and fabrication. Engineers, inspectors, and railroad's mechanical departments would probably be more willing to accept a welded or fabricated boilers, frames, saddles, cylinders, drivers, etc. than cast in today's environment.

Things have come a long way. There was a day when no steam engineer would have trusted a welded boiler carrying 200-300 psi--the welding technology wasn't that good. Now, no one would trust a riveted boiler if a welded boiler was an option.

Please remember that the old British Rail model was rendered extinct over a decade ago by denationalisation, mandated by the European Economic Community. The replacement--Network Rail as a state-run infrastructure management agency and franchise operations for commuter, intercity passenger, and freight operations--is "publicly owned" only in the same sense that the United States' trucking or airline industries are "publicly owned. The infrastructure, yes; the operations, not so.

In addition to the answers postulated by others (accurate or no), I will add the following:

1) The biggest problem confronting the possibility of mainline steam in the USA is simple: Litigation has replaced baseball as the national pastime. In the United States and Canada, the first question that would enter the head of any rail official hearing the proposal of mainline steam is "How much risk does that expose our company and our stockholders to?" The risk, relative to return in money or publicity, is just insurmountable in a culture where the first reaction to an incident is to sue.
Britain, Japan, and other countries have a different environment, legally, logistically, and culturally. With nationalized health care and "welfare" programs for disability, etc. (please don't let this become a political debate, I beg of you), there is less impetus and motivation in other countries to attempt to recover either costs of an accident or inflict punitive sanctions with the lawsuit.

2) The far larger size of the United States, and the vast distances involved, induce much greater fragmentation of rail enthusiasts' interest and "critical mass" necessary to support a specific project. If the demographics and geography of the United States were like only New England and the Mid-Atlantic states alone instead of including Montana, Missouri, Mississippi, and Michigan and the places in between, the picture would be vastly different. Even a GWR fan in Devon can see cause to support the replication of an LNER/BR A1 Pacific; "selling" the idea of (just pulling some random examples here) an RF&P 4-8-4 to California fans, or a NYC Hudson to Arizonans or a NP 4-8-4 to folks in New England would be a vastly more difficult proposition, no matter how worthy the project may be.

Suppose the R&LHS or NRHS launched an initiative to build a replica steamer, with the explicit cooperation of some corporate underwriter and the AAR and Amtrak, who will guarantee the loco a way to romp. So what loco design should be chosen? I guarantee you that whatever design would be chosen, at least half or more of the potential support of the membership would suddenly dissipate--simply because it's not a PRR T1/Lehigh Valley loco/Illinois Central 4-8-2/SR Ps-4/Western Pacific loco/whatever. The only compromise would be that "locomotive" Gil Reid depicted in a Trains cartoon in the 1960s, with features drawn from fifteen or so main-line excursion locos of the time.

Hi.

I've been involved in the UK preservation scene for around 35 years. I've really enjoyed being a member of this site and I don't think we have that much to teach you guys. From what I have seen here, some wonderful work is being done.

You have heard about the best UK schemes in the first to third divisions. There are plenty of others struggling to make something out of very little and getting nowhere fast.

As for the Heritage Lottery Scheme - nothing succeeds like success. A few get a lot, some get something and a lot get nothing. If we had not built a movement worth investing in, there would be no band wagon for others to climb on. We have the Heritage Railway Association which is always ready to bang the drum, and which constantly reminds anyone who is willing to listen ( and others) that for every £1 spent on a railway, £5 is spent in the local economy.

The advantages we have are that the country is small and the movement is well connected. I'm pretty sure I don't realise how big the US is and I reckon the reverse is true. I live in the middle of England and there are around six standard gauge schemes within an hours drive of my home. If I went up to two hours drive I'd have a job to count them; that is admittedly higher than average. I spotted a post by the Navada Northern Railroad to the effect that some of their patrons make a 900 mile round trip, which makes me blink a bit.

In practice that means that, for example, there is a pattern maker over in Chesterfield, about 25 miles away who is generally recommended to people like me and has access to a foundry, and a pattern store full of locomotive and railway patterns. We have that sort of information net.

Our equipment is smaller and lighter - you might say more primitive - but I had cause to move some freight vehicles a week or so ago and that cost £300 per wagon. I doubt if any of them weighed over 10 UK tons, and they were only going ten miles. Distance = cost.

One fundamental strength we have is the close relationship between the industrial and heritage railway sectors. Back in the sixties and seventies British Railways advertised for staff in the railfan magazines. By now they are in senior positions in both sectors and in a position to influence, for example, the disposal of surplus equipment. Privatisation, from around 1996 was in certain respects utter chaos which we were well placed to exploit. Anything the accountants did not understand was simply being thrown away, and we gathered it in.

Industrial sponsorship is probably worth more to us than public grants. I once persuaded Powergen, the nationalised electric generation authority before privatisation, to give away 3 miles of track. The accountants had written it down to £500, bless them, but it would not have happened without the goodwill of the engineer in charge.

Regards,

Tim

i am not an expert on the British side of the pond but I wanted to make a couple of general comments.

I am planning a visit to the National Railroad Museum next summer and I know that they are one of many styles of railroad preservation. The british invented railroads and also railroad preservation my volunteers; I understand that one of the Welsh two foot lines has been run by volunteers since just after the end of WWII.

The population in the British Isles is more interested in history than most American are!I was in the Tower station of the London underground in 1979; the station was kind of torn up and they had found stone parts of both the Medieval city and the Roman city walls. I was back 10 years later and ther station had been rebuilt to display the stonework with considerable signage explaining what you were lookin at. That is the kind of history that they have over there!

Yes, it is certain that the Barry scrap yard supplied many of the locomotives that became restoration projects. But in all cases a lot of money, volunteer and paid were put into them in order to bring them back to operational condition. Remember they were in a scrap yard and one on the water with salt laden wind blowing through them for years.

the Ditcot Railway Centre is one museum that I have been following. They are doing a rail motor from scratch: new boiler, engine, truck and all. Although small it is impressive! Yes, this one is a Heritage Lottery Project.

The Lottery also gives money to theatre groups, sports (think Little League) and building and marititme preservation. I wish we had something like that here I would buy a Lottery ticket for those kinds of things you bet!

Another thing; they do not just run trains at their museums; they restore the stations, engine houses, living quarters, crossing gates and track side structures

Some of their other projects have been casting new wheels and noumerous parts for some of those Barry locomotives. WOW! I .K. Brunel would have been proud of them for preserving his Great Western Railway. He just turned 200 a couple of years ago.

Ted Miles

Yet when I visited STEAM at Swindon a few years ago, it was almost a ghost town apart from the outlet mall taking up part of the old Gods' Wonderful Railway shops adjacent to the very well crafted museum. Lots of thought and money went into that project - what has happened there since?

dave

In my original post, I did not mean to suggest that museums in the U.K. are better, or that preservationists in the U.K. are doing a superior job to preservationists here. I think if you were to visit any number of museums across the U.S. you would find that preservation is generally in a good state, becoming more refined and well-researched as time goes on.
The main argument/topics I meant to discuss were specifically:
1. How we can organize as a group to lobby for better communication with railroads and provide more mainline steam operation as is present in the U.K.
and
2. When it will be time to consider more modern new-build locomotives relevant to U.S. preservation.
Regarding this, while I am aware that many locomotives (post 1930) were constructed with locomotive bed castings, etc, the majority of locomotives constructed before that were simply built up frames. One category of locomotives which were generally considered successful were the URSA locomotives designed for the nationalized railroad system during WWI. Not only would such a locomotive be simpler to construct as opposed to modern locomotive designs, but it would also have broad appeal since they were purchased by multiple roads across the country. Indeed, the 100th anniversary of these locomotives design is quickly approaching.
Yet, I digress. Before preservationists engage in building a locomotive of this era, I suggest constructing a locomotive based on a turn of the century design.

Happened to run across this recently, might provide some insight?

http://www.bizview.tv/examples/bv031-steam.php

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley Railroad

Regarding "one piece" locomotive frame and cylinders castings: Is there any place in the world that still has this capability? It's the sort of "heavy industry" once associated with countries "behind the Iron Curtain"--would such a facility exist in Poland or Russia?
Also, in the entry about bed castings, it mentions URSA locomotives. I realize this was probably an inadvertent "typo", but I couldn't help thinking about a mythical "Bear" class of engines.

That ever-lauded Heritage Lottery Fund is only one of four major funders officially credited. I know record producer and locomotive collector Pete Waterman was also a generous benefactor. And in watching the video linked by brother Farlow, I recognize several exhibits as being on loan from the National Collection (i.e. National Railway Museum).

Dave, I think the comparable here is Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona. Both are full-dress attempts to build a public museum centered on social history. Both have had major challenges. It seems to me that presenting a story with social history rather than technology or nostalgia front and center, doing so in former industrial sites (usually at least somewhat off the beaten path), and attracting the public in large numbers is a code we have not yet cracked on either side of the pond.