You can always re-lay rail when needed, if other lines dire need it thats a feasable thing to do to help square up some monetary situations, and have active operation elsewhere, but -not- declare the rail removed abandoned with the interest of re-laying with new rail.

It just reminds me of Snidely Whiplash situations and the Mortgage due or I marry your fiance deal.

History shows otherwise. Once rail is removed (for scrap, a trail, etc.), you really have an uphill battle getting a railroad re-laid absent a new mine, quarry, industry, or other major traffic source.. I would strongly discourage any rail preservation project from removing rail except in two circumstances: when new rail is sitting right there ready to be laid in its place, or if the removal is considered a permanent retreat.

The Stewartstown Railroad's reply to the recent STB filing made by the Estate of George M. Hart may be viewed at this link:
http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/4d8f33fc5c22ca46852577e30055062d?OpenDocument

my thoughts, Stewartstown will win this. The line shows far too much potential than to be outright abandoned. The estate is showing their lawyerness about getting their debt paid, but 300,000 so bucks for any railroad should be a drop in the bucket vs the full value of the railroad. If this keeps up the estate might get viewed as the bad guys without a heart and the dream of potential of the railroad.

In similarity The Notre Dame freight line with the CLS&SB went to court and the court ruled that Notre Dame could decide to return to rail freight so the line was not abandoned, but pieces of the line have been torn up by adjacent landowners.
NS doesnt seem to give a ding dong but the line is saved.
Stewartstown has an even better chance the abandonment will not happen there is far too much going for it than a silly debt.

If the estate can't budge I see a bad lawsuit brewing.

With all due respect, do YOU have an extra $300K lying around loose to write off?

The problem at this point is that there's simply NO viable and consistent source of freight revenue for the line, and little prospect of the line earning enough revenue to cover its costs with excursion service. Don't forget that, in addition to the line between Stewartstown and New Freedom, we're also having to deal with the track of the former Northern Central/PRR line from New Freedom to York.

Right now, Norfolk Southern, the Stewartstown's "connection" to the rest of the rail world (not counting the potential of a YorkRail connection to CSX) is all but engaged in a campaign to shift even its own branchline traffic, let alone that of connecting short lines, to its own transloading and intermodal/team tracks. I'm watching three NS branch lines and two short lines on the decline as their customers do the math and figure out it's cheaper or better to load the truckloads of lumber or grain at the new NS yard down the highway than it is to wait for a thrice-a-week local on the branch or short line. With NS having a newly-rebuilt transload yard in nearby York, I can't see the Stewartstown surviving on freight.

Even if the estate debt were to magically vanish overnight, that railroad would have the same uphill battle against deteriorating track, infrastructure, and equipment as does the East Broad Top and most every other historic not-for-profit line out there.

The only model I see that could assure the survival of the Stewartstown is its absorption by the county or commonwealth as a "linear park" and tourist-promotion or historical resource. York County has already had several decades' experience along these lines (remember "York Rail 150" and the visit of PRR 1361 in 1988? Or the York-New Freedom joint rail/bike trail through Howard Tunnel?). If this isn't considered a brazenly obvious answer in 2010, we have to trust that either the political/social climate in York County has changed since then (it has), or that past experiences have shown that the returns on "investment" are not what had been anticipated. I suspect that some of the experiences of the "Liberty Limited" dinner train operation and the "junkyard of old passenger cars" situation that existed at New Freedom for years have soured many on such prospects as well, especially in the New Freedom-Stewartstown area critical to such support for the Stewartstown RR.

I save myself a whole lot of typing by considering the origins of some communications herein and upon occasion amusing myself with simple mental substitutions of letters, such as "m" for "n"

I have something in the back of my mind about this, I'll save it, but first thing its obvious about trucking competition, the railroads say in the teens-20's and so on had a stronger tie in to the general public if you wanted something delivered I could go to a railroad freight house and have it sent that way. Or like the interurbans with their local freight service and small industry servers and recall the LCL teamtracks, where local farmers/vendors/ what not could load up at these points and make their deliveries. This is what detroit, the car makers have done, tie that into the government that seemed to have a -negative conception- about the railroads backing the building of highways, and consider Chicago building their Eisenhower expressway that effectively killed the CA&E.

Railroads have had to adapt to this and change their service style it is more difficult to deal with the small loads industry.

Whether or not Stewartstown has this outstanding debt or not its always the business challenge to get rail traffic your way, the South Shore is always promoting trying to get more traffic, it would be no different for Stewartstown, thats a given. You have to have that business dream you can do it and make it work. I still don't see how the debt is enough to call for abandonment. There is still the potential for the railroad and the FRA may see that the same as the Notre Dame line, and Stewartstown still has the railroad and the potential despite the gloomy forecast. EBT still goes, so should Stewartstown. They have an established group out to keep the line going,, thats proven, the Estate is doing whatever it can legally do to have the debts paid, calling for abandonment, rip out the railroad to get the scrap money just to solve a debt...well, we lost the North Shore like that. Now a lot of its former ROW is owned by the landowners developed and impossible to bring the line back if you tried.

The judge on the Notre Dame railroad line case saw the exact same thing and said it was difficult to recover the railroad once abandoned. Thats why I say it will never happen with Stewartstown.

I want to see the FRA reaction.

Despite all else the line could be sold, thats how Insull got the Lake Shore (South Shore), and that new owner could infuse new life into line.

Keep cranking you guys at Stewartstown.

cheers.

Let's try this one more time.

There's NO freight traffic. There's little hope of finding any, especially given the "Toonerville Trolley"/"Titfield Thunderbolt" profile and construction of the line.

If you found freight traffic of some sort, you would HAVE to rebuild the track. The 60-pound rail and ties CANNOT handle modern cars. Even assuming you can use the existing locos, you're looking at a million dollars' worth of new/used rail and ties, and possibly at least one new bridge. Not even looking at the New Freedom/York section.

The ONLY way you could raise that kind of money with passenger excursions on the current line would probably involve strip clubs and parlor cars with stages with poles. Or worse. (See the plot of a Japanese anime called "Midnight Sleazy Train" if you wish to pursue this strategy to keep your rail line open.....)

Any attempt to compare the current situation to ones at Notre Dame, the CA&E, CNS&M, etc. is a totally apples-and-oranges comparison, related only in that there's rail involved. And, sad to say, any belief that this line can be saved absent a huge cash windfall from an "angel" or a winning lottery ticket, or government intervention and assistance, is perhaps delusional at best.

Alex has spoken. Its time to give up and go home. We are so lucky to have him here to save us. Railroad preservation efforts are only to be expended for projects that are 100% certain to succeed.

Ok so you obviously have an emotional attachment to the Stewartstown. But emotion does not equal preservation. Those trying to save the railroad need to make an honest plea as to why I or anyone else who has never been to the Stewartstown should care about an outdated, poorly equiped branch that currently is in disrepair and at best will give just another train ride when there are several tourist operations within the region. I say this because that is how preservation works. That is how fund raising works. Sell me or any other donor on why this project deserves my money instead of another and how my money will actually be used to insure the LONG TERM SURVIVAL of the Stewartstown. If you can't do that then you really must ask yourself if this is really worth all the hot air and effort or if it is better to just move on and focus efforts on things that actually have a realistic chance of being preserved.

Kevin

Look, it's not a confirmed death yet. Stranger things have happened. If anyone had told me in 1985 that someone would manage to get a native-to-the-region Climax running on a "washed-out" line in Middle of Nowhere, West Virginia right "around the corner" from a much larger, more attractive, and state-subsidized rail attraction, I would have laughed in his or her face. OR that the same parties would repatriate the "lost" West Virginia Northern 2-8-0's, or reactivate that remote end of the Western Md. for freight and passenger excursions, more laughter and accusations of the ingestion of illegal narcotics.

There are ways the Stewartstown can be saved as is. But they require a vast amount of political and diplomatic skill, the kind that resulted in such otherwise-unfeasible projects (for better or worse) as Steamtown, the West Va. Central and Durbin & Greenbrier Valley, the Altoona projects, the American Freedom Train, the Chessie Steam Special, and even the NS and UP steam programs. Sadly, I've yet to see such diplomacy engaged in the Stewartstown situation so far.

As a close mutual associate of one of the principals responsible for some of what I've listed once told me, "[Name's] special talent is not just selling sand to the Arabs and snow to the Eskimos; he also somehow makes them eager to do it and makes it seem like it was their idea in the first place!" Mental talent like that is what is needed--not just for the Stewartstown, but for the viable sustainability of any preservation project, long-term. (Yes, this occasionally means you get a museum director or curator that isn't a railfan.)

I think we can all agree it is a tough uphill battle. Historic preservation is all about tough uphill battles. We all know we win some and we lose some. I'd like to remind everyone that in 2003 Tropical Storm Henri destroyed 6 bridges and a lot of track on the W&W in Delaware. Some thought it might be the end of the beloved little W&W but they pulled it off. Today the W&W is in better shape than ever. I know the circumstances are different but nevertheless it was an uphill battle that was won. Remember the Dylan Thomas poem "Do not go gentle into that good night".

I do not have a personal connection to the Stewartstown Railroad. I have actually never been within 100 miles of the place, but I can relate to the people who are trying to save it, and the last thing they need is for like minded people to give up on them as well. They should fight it out to the end. What have they to lose but the railroad itself? And since none of us are personally liable for any risk in this project, shouldn't our stance to be to at least cause no further harm to their efforts?

We are rail preservationists, and so what we say is held to a higher standard. We are the professionals in the field. A public argument that the cause is hopeless could certainly do more harm than either a neutral or positive comment.

I have already presented my thoughts on preserving at least a portion of the railroad as an alternative to the "all or nothing" approach.

While this can be elevated to some rather lofty debates as part of preservation, the STB adverse abandonment case basically hinges on whether or not the Stewartstown deserves the 'protection' of the STB as a common-carrier freight railroad, albeit one out of service. That hinges on the quality of the claims on both sides as to the liklihood, and progress, on rejoining the national freight system with freight customers and a plan.

Don't expect them to get caught up in any of the same emotional issues we might. Or consider passenger service that isn't connected to the national system. That's just not why they exist. They exist to protect rail freight service as a common carrier; to preserve the alternatives of rail freight transportation wherever it has a decent chance of actually surviving without serving as a defacto seizure of privately-owned assets. Usually, Adverse Abandonment is used as a last-resort tool to remove a non-performing operator/owner from the property to allow another entity to come in and provide freight service. Where 'communities' have petitioned the STB (say, to get in a trail by removing track) and yet preserve the ROW, the STB has gone both ways based on evidence. This one appears to be a new animal entirely. Don't necessarily look for a rapid decision.

And, even if the STB goes along and allows adverse abandonment (or allow with conditions that the ROW must remain intact), that still only removes the federal government from the process. It is still entirely possible to operate the line for excursion service, assuming that the parties involved could work out a long-term solution.

Everyone involved is in a difficult position - the Estate is legally required to 'close it up' by State law, the railroad wants to find a way to survive, and even Bucks County got in this not necessarily by design. The preservation community needs to monitor this case, however, to see what if any precents come into this that may affect not just Stewartstown, but other operations as well. The STB thrives on precedent, and this may be a new one that has broader implications.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Stewartstown Railroad is an authentic American antiquity.

Unlike some "tourist" or "heritage" railroads that operate on discarded branches or spurs of larger railroads, the STRT operates on its original right-of-way that was laid-out in 1884-1885. Its "new" station in Stewartstown was built in 1914, almost 100 years ago, to replace a structure located about two blocks away. The "new" station was built at this site to better facilitate interchange between the STRT and the New Park & Fawn Grove Railroad, which connected to the STRT at this site.

This is why many railfans and local history buffs are trying to save the little Stewartstown Railroad.