Agree! How many photons and electrons have been consumed on this board pondering how to get the younger generations interested in rail preservation?

For example, consider finding your local computer/robotics club. High schools often have clubs that construct robots that battle it out in contests with other schools. Geekdom at a very high level. Computer hardware and even software engineers of today would have been the mechanical engineers and machinists of the years past. These kids enjoy building things, reverse engineering things and fixing things.

No matter coding something up to run a BART/Metro car or one of Ross's retired GE's, I believe this would be a great way to gain new, young talent. While there is the challenge of saving these pieces because of their mechanical differences, there will also be the challenge of saving the documentation of the software and even saving a copy of the software (versions) for any new engine running today. But with just documentation and a breadboard, it may very well be one day you will have a museum member running an ES44ac off an iPhone or other smart phone of the day.

And you know there will be an excellent chance some of these kids will one day wander over to the steam crew and start to ask questions...

Bob

Not if the Feds are still banning personal electronics such as cell phones, you won't.....

[ducks for cover from thrown objects]

What was the as-built propulsion system on BART cars? I presume traditional DC series-wound motors but what kind of control electricals / electronics?

Steve

In the defense of my generation, I was on my High School's robotics team and although many groups are not into doing it yourself as much as we were at my school, we did most of our own machining for our robots (weighing 120lbs each I might add). My High School disposed of our machine shop class years ago but they kept a few machines for the club use. I learned basic mill and lathe skills from upperclassman when I joined the club.

Unless they are removed and brought to an out of the way location, I am certain that the group that takes on these cars will be able to find a college students or recent graduates that would be willing to take the time to make these cars usable. Individuals that would not have otherwise seen themselves working at a preservation group.

-Scott

Steve;

The BART A and B cars as built by Rohr had the first application of chopper to transit. It was made by Westinghouse. The C1 and C2 cars were a later version of DC chopper also made by Westinghose. These cars all ran with a large (140 HP) version of the PCC car traction motor, the 1463BA. The A and B cars we rebuilt using AC motors contorlled by IGBTs using VVVF control. The propulsion was solid but the traction motors suffered vibration failures, just as Steinmetz had predicted in 1898. This was more Westinghouse equipment, but by time the contract was finished the corporation had gone through 5 or 6 differenrt ownerships and was owned by Bombardier.

There are at least three of the Boeing LRV cars preserved... reportadly all with issues... one in Oregon at Brooks, one at Rio Vista, and one at Market Street Railway... maybe a fourth in England.

These are complicated modern cars, compatible with 600 volt standard gauge trolley....

This is probably the test project for preserved "modern" technology

And not much of an experiment either. The only museums that saved even one are the museums who were pretty much obliged to. WRM and Muni, as the nominal Muni preservation societies; Seashore as the nominal Boston preservation society. And hats off to Oregon Electric for actually going out of their way.

I'm telling you, the newkrap in 2011 is like a diesel in 1970. Nobody loves em, nobody will save them, but ... 20 years after they're gone, people will be banging their head against the wall going "WHAT WERE WE THINKING????" It'll be the PA, Shark and Trainmaster all over again.

Yes, the tech will be a PitA. And here's where we ought to pay a little attention. You know how there's 40 South Shore cars saved out of a total original fleet of 55... There's more Lackawanna trailers preserved than ever existed in the first place... The right thing to do, here, is to deliberately induce that effect. Search for one type of car that is extraordinarly maintainable... and preserve dozens of them. If it's the Sacramento cars, then we scatter the whole darn fleet across every museum in America, and that becomes the apocryphal LRV-class daily runner. Why? Parts supply. We only have one class of car to maintain among us.

I disagree.
Not everything in a transit museum collection has to operate. We at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum have two pieces in our collection that are intended as strictly static display items, and will never run. These are the 1931 Brill "Bullet" car and a 1960 Budd Market-Frankford subway car. Our long term thinking for these cars, and possibly others, is to build a special display building with an interior representing a rapid transit station. We have acquired a set of the original 1969 PATCO fare gates for use in this proposed display.

In defense of ths position, we have tried to represent, in our fixed plant, the Pittsburgh Railways interurban lines as they existed from 1928, when track circuit ABS was installed, to the end of operaation or the the time when the remaining sections were modernized into today's LRV lines. Modern equipment would be completely out of place in this environment, aside from the fact that almost none of it will negotiate the streetcar curves in our loops.

Another arguement for making such equipment static displys is that "electronic" equipment is not designed to be maintained in the traditional replace a part when it fails manner indefinitely. Instead, every 20 or so years, the entire control and propulsion system is replaced with currently available components. Thus, to keep such equipment operating means that you will eventually have an original carbody with a non-original propulsion and control system, if you can figure out how to design and build the necessary upgrades in a museum environment.

Just as well could something like an ipad, xbox or PS2. But you will be ducking for cover when you realize someone is controlling it by sending text messages.

There are at least three of the Boeing LRV cars preserved... reportadly all with issues... one in Oregon at Brooks, one at Rio Vista, and one at Market Street Railway... maybe a fourth in England.

These are complicated modern cars, compatible with 600 volt standard gauge trolley....

We often operate HTM 1329, a 1971 model PCC from the Hague. The car has a variety of solid-state circuitry including interlocks for braking and speed. One control circuit seems to be designed to prevent what I would call a Hollywood stop - a quick application of brake followed by re-acceleration. If you don't stop just-so before powering up, the car will stop for you by going into a form of emergency braking. The car may look like its North American predecessors, but operation and maintenance is another matter.

Wesley

It seems fairly obvious to me that a 3 car set should be staticly preserved and if, in time, someone has the ability to restore and run such equipment, it still exists. I agree that in 20 or so years we will be on the same forum lamenting the loss of these unique cars and wishing that someone had the foresight to save just one......

Wes

BART should save a few old cars in operating condition as other transit systems have.

BART started the national return to rapid transit. Atlanta and Washington, D.C. are two examples of cities that followed. Thus the added historical significance of the cars. Therefore the California State RR Museum should grab a few and back date them to original condition. And the building of the transbay tubes needs to be highlighted as a significant engineering accomplishment. What in modern mass transit is more California than BART?

I believe that there were four MUNI Boeing LRV cars saved. The MUNI has two, WRM one, and one to Oregon. The car that went to England went there as they were a potential buyer of the entire fleet. I beleive they took one look at the car and cut it up for scrap.

The car at WRM does run from time to time. The man who takes care of it is a pilot and aircraft mechanic and is completely at home with the car. These cars are the only transit car I am aware of with shunt wound traction motors. The problem with the cars was that Tokyo Car made some error in manufacturing or shipping the car bodies and they have extreme corrosion problems. The problem is so sever that the MUNI chose to repalce, rather that rebuild, the cars. This is also a challenge to preservation.

It is safe to say that CSRM will not be saving any transit cars. They have serious space issue and have been getting rid of equipment from their collection. WRM acquired two Sacramento Northern freight cars from them.

I am in complete agreement with Art Schwartz about the problem of electronic components becoming obsolete. You are lucky if you can finish building a new transit car before the parts are obsolete. In a museum setting, the only parts that will be available are the ones that were acquired with the car when it comes out of service. Do not under estimate the complexity of the software requred to make these cars operate, especially the AC drive cars. There are volumes of software needed just to trouble shoot the car.

The problem with trying to preserve 30 plus year-old cars in operating condition, such as the Boeing Vertol streetcars, is that they are full of obsolete electronic components that no longer are available. In many cases equivalent replacements are not made. Long term operation of these cars is impossible with original electronics.

These cars are from the era of transistor-transistor-logic (TTL) circuits. Many different electronic components are connected together on a circuit board to accomplish a task. The failure of only one of these components means that the circuit will not work. The test jigs that the factory used to troubleshoot circuit boards down to individual components no longer exist.

A spare parts relay for a 1910's interurban motor control switchgear will last for hundreds of years sitting on a shelf. Any competent machinist probably could fabricate a replacement if needed. Electronic components have a definite shelf life. They will fail after a while sitting on a shelf. No machinists can fabricate a replacement.

Can a local high school electronics class design and fabricate replacement electronics? I would say that is very unlikely considering the level of expertise and all the experimentation that went into the original.

So face facts. The best approach for preserving these cars and Old BART cars is in a static display with the cars protected from the weather. They could even be made to rock with appropriate sounds like the Pullman car at the California State Railroad Museum. Large video screens outside the windows could supply scenery that woul have been seen in regular operation.

On a related subject, it would be possible to design electronic circuits to supply all the different 25 Hz voltages needed to operate a GGI from a 600 volt DC trolley wire. They probably would fit into the space used by the removed transformer with room to spare. All it would require is someone to write a check with a lot of zeros to the left of the decimal point.