I would have to say either the H6sb or the G5s would be the best canidates for restoration.

The fact that Strasburg is across the street is great, but not an exclusive reason for locking up the vast majority of existing PRR steam from the possibility of operation. My point is not that the current circumstances are great for restoration to operation, but that the original fabric at all costs argument for equipment that they obviously have no issues altering original fabric to some fairly significant degree is fallacious. Further, how much original fabric is actually extant after years of service?

I understand that occasionally certain items should be considered for extremely limited use or no use at all if their condition precludes such (the original John Bull comes to mind). B&O Museum's William Mason is maintained in such a manner and does get to operate from time to time. Nevada State RR Museum's collection at Carson City also gets to be demonstrated on special occassions.

Again, iron horses are not natural history specimans or works of art (well, they are a symphony of steam and steel, but that's a slightly different discussion) intended only to be viewed. They are machines intended to perform a task and treating them otherwise is a disservice to them and society.

Mike

Well, the criteria is more based on "what locomotive best suits the purpose" than "what locomotive is in the best condition."

You wouldn't use a 4-8-4 as the shop goat, or the 0-4-0T as mainline power.

Cart and horse here.........please reverse order.

dave

This thread is all over the map… for all the right reasons…

Museums need to have a plan for the preservation of their stuff… The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania has a well thought out preservation plan that does not include operation. It could change, or not… The railfans among us need to get over it… Then walk across the street.

Accreditation is good… not all of us can justify it… ARM (Association of Railway Museums) developed its “Recommended Guidelines” in response to the differences in operating railroad museums and traditional (art, history etc… ) museums… Adopt a set of guide lines… follow them, understand them, follow them… get accredited based on the guide lines you adopt. I recommend the ARM guide lines as a starting point.

Almost any US preserved locomotive could be restored… some may require more work, and therefore more money and resources… As Dave said, right locomotive for the right use.

501c3 organizations have an advantage when doing preservation… they generally can bring more resources to the table thanks to tax advantages and limitations on public money going to private projects… but private projects, where the individual responsible has private resources, can get great things done… there is likely a single decision maker (or at Strasburg, a group of decision makers) who can’t be second guessed (except by foamers/railfans, who we previously agreed didn’t count) Dan Markoff, owner of Eureka comes to mind… he had a (personal) visison… he made it happen… Strasburg (a board of directors, investors) have a vision… they continue to make it happen.

Randy

Question for Mr. Mitchell, do you know how extensive a restoration RMPA is doing with the 460? Meaning bondo vs. cutting out all bad metal, etc.

Thanks!

To the best of my memory because photography was not permitted:

Cutting out lots of wasted/bad metal. Tender box separated from the frame. Large sections of sheet metal being replaced. I remember one bin holding what remained of the cab-signal wiring, lights, etc. I think there was the remains of some bird's nests among those hunks. Where feasible or necessary, portions of rust on large castings/frames/etc. being painted with "rust converter" and then being built up with new metal and welding. Rivets here and there being replaced.

In other words, it appears "bondo" seems a verboten concept now.

Some of the damage I saw was on par with the absolute worst of the "park engines" I've ever seen, even worse than C&O 2760 in Lynchburg years ago, worse than that 0-4-2T in Greenbelt, Md. before it was scrapped, worse than the most derelict pieces the B&O Museum has/had to offer, and on par with the "Lost Engines of Roanoke." It was on par with what one would expect if the loco had been sitting in a seashore town the whole time, with salt air at work.

Before anyone beats up the RR Museum of Pa., let's remember that this is really the first time anything substantial has been done to the locomotive in perhaps 60 years. It was in the Northumberland roundhouse (and painted there "on the cheap") for about 20 years, and has been sitting outside at Strasburg for over 35 years. Just be glad her sister locos--6755, 520, 757, etc.--don't all look as appalling. (Truth be told, some probably do, underneath the paint.)

Thanks for the info. Sounds like a first-rate cosmetic restoration on par with previous projects.

Actually, 460 has probably sat outside since it was retired around 1955 or 1956. I know it was outside, still with coal in the bunker and ashes in the ashpan, when I saw first it at Northumberland in 1965. At that time, 460 sat outside with the G-5 and B-6, a and I think the H-10 and M-1, across the turntable from the roundhouse.

"Photography was prohibited"??

For what reason? National Security? Inappropriate comments chalked on the boiler shell? Personnel not wearing hard hats?

A steam locomotive undergoing cosmetic restoration in a State shop facility.... are there some ultra-proprietary processes taking place here that are "secret"?

Please explain, if you are allowed to do so without violating any agreements...

Howard P.

The engine in the best condition there would be Conrail 2233, seeing it is the most recently ran thing they have there. They still won't run it though, and I don't blame them.

I was asked not to take photos by the tour host, who was one of the Museum officials, not a docent. I wanted to argue a bit, but it wasn't exactly a "public" tour. The loco was buried deep in the restoration shed, and I (and two or three other men) got to crawl around in/on 460 in a way the public wouldn't.

Understand that I was there as a representative of the Baltimore Chapter NRHS, and had presented a $750 check from the Chapter to the Friends of the RR Museum specifically tabbed for restoration of the 460 as part of "Pennsy Days."

Figure on one of three things: 1) they didn't want everyone asking for tours of the shop; 2) they didn't want some OSHA or insurance person blowing a gasket; or 3) there isn't much to be gained from spreading photographic evidence of just how badly 460 has rotted in 35 years of Commonwealth custodianship.

If you want to see a PRR design locomotive run again, please make a check out to either the Oyster Bay Rail Road Museum, for G5s #35, the Railroad Museum of Long Island, for G5s #39, the Western New York Railroad Historical Society, for I1sa #4483, or to the Railroaders Museum in Altoona, for K4s 1361. The two G5's are already partly funded and on the way. Yes, I'd like to see RMPA's K4s, H-10s, H6sb, and M1b, all fired again. It remains unlikely, but not impossible. I will call your attention to the P-54 Mustang that was completely destroyed in an aviation collision last month. That baby is gone forever.
I don't agree 100% with RMPA's policy, but it does have its positive side.

Aren't we forgetting the obvious choice, the replica John Bull> It's operated at RRMPA, and according to their webpage, may again with more funding to do the 147-day inspection on the boiler:

http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/johnbull.shtml

Oh, great, now the regs say that if the loco is one-tenth the size, it has to be inspected ten times as often?? >;-)

I hadn't forgotten about the John Bull replica at all. But I knew two things:

1) "Replicas don't count"; and

2) even if we argue that the replica is old enough by itself to be historic, the only thing 99.5% of people who postulate a question such as the one that started this thread actually care about is a locomotive big/fast enough to fulfill their Walter Mitty-like fantasies of roaring down the main line behind it at 60 mph.

Therefore, if we came back and showed them that PRR A5s 0-4-0 94 Is fit to run and could be certified for only a $200 inspection, a $200 form processing fee, and a $400 tender-load of coal and water, only a few diehard PRR fans would care. Oh, and a few more diehard photo charter fans as well, and they would be the one raising that money.

I would be one of them raising the money for that!! :)