Ray, yes, the economy is slow right now, but this trip was very reasonably priced in my opinion. It's 7 hours long, has multiple runbys, etc. They mention a lunch stop, so you'd probably get 6 hours of actual run time. All that for $50? A bargain in my opinion.

I know of another trip with roughly the same description, 6 hours or so, runbys, lunch stop, and it's going for about $100. Lunch is included, so that is a slight difference, but not $50 worth.

Especially given that this trip is a "Ride 'em before they go away forever" type of thing, I don't understand why there's not more patronage. Then again, maybe the locals figure "I can ride 'em for the price of a commuter ticet and who needs runbys when they run 'em like streetcars!"


Still, I think the trip was priced well and should have done better.

- Bob H

Bob,
In my opinion this is exactly why this trip did not sell well. Why would I want to pay $50 for a foamer joy ride when they are still in regular service on the system. A one day pass with unlimited rides on all Septa transportation modes is only $11 for adults. I can enjoy them in their "natural habitat" rather than a fan trip and as you said they run them like streetcars so all I have to do is pick my own photogenic location and create my own runbys. Not to mention that for the purists these cars are in the worst scheme they have worn since built. Perhaps if the cars that were to be used on the trips lost those awful window bands and regained their PRR or RDG logos it would have drawn more ridership. It doesn't seem that Septa has gone out of their way to help celebrate these cars the way neighboring NJT has done over the years as we saw the end of the DL&W MUs, PRR GG1s and the EL U34CHs. Heck NJT themselves repainted the U34CHs for their final excursion. While I appreciate that they wanted to celebrate these cars with a final hurrah it just doesn't seem like it was a worthwhile excursion.

Just my $0.02
Kevin O

That was the problem identified by some prospective riders around a library table yesterday. Absent some special feature like an attempt at a speed record nonstop run between Trenton and Wilmington, whadaya got?

However, I am told that the PRR-vintage cars only run on the Airport Line and in rush-hour service, so it's not like they are really "streetcar" headways here.......



Remind us again how long ago those were? Seventeen years ago, eighteen years ago, and [???] years ago? Pre-Windows 3.1, pre-common household Internet, pre-modems that didn't require rubber cups, pre-on-site photo processing machines? Literally, a generation ago............

The Farewell to the DL&W MUs was 1984.

I guess my question would be how is a fan trip on a commuter line preservation related?

So historic equipment is only historic if it's at a railway museum?

Increasing public awareness of historic equipment isn't a good idea?

Seems like a pretty narrow point of view. Taking that same approach would rule out a lot of the discussions here...

Meanwhile, the specifics of this trip may not relate to preservation, but the discussion of the trip's cost and why it didn't reach the passenger goal are general and applicable to a lot of other operations. (Unless your view of preservation is that you do not operate the equipment since it will eventually wear out the artifacts you're trying to preserve. I'll grant you that position does have some merit.)

If that is the case, then it makes the trip worthwhile. It's also something that they should have clearly spelled out in the promotional material.

"This is your chance to ride and photograph these cars on lines that they no longer operate on! They only run on Line X, and we'll be covering Lines A, B, C & D, and getting photographs that you can't normally get..."

Granted, the trip promoters probably already know that, but the audience doesn't. Do not assume that your prospective customers realize what makes your trip unusual. If it's rare mileage, rare requipment, unusual routing, special paint schemes, etc, etc, etc, be sure and make that obvious! Promotion sells tickets.

Depends on if you're the preservationist or the commuter/transit agency.

I have seen, first-hand, at least three instances where the allocation of certain "historic" equipment to museums resulted, ultimately, in some ugly blow-back when commuters were effectively able to tell the agency "You mean to tell us you're forcing us to ride stuff that is so [darned] old that it belongs in a [bleeping] museum, and IN FACT IT ALREADY IS IN THE [BLEEPING] MUSEUM?!?"

This is often a very delicate dance that transit agencies, Amtrak, etc. do with regards to "historic" equipment. This is part of why, for example, the only equipment preserved from Amtrak so far and carrying Amtrak markings are a couple locomotives, and no cars yet.

As in the MARC gallery cars I rode on the Brunswick line for 15 months? lol.

Wesley

As long as the cars are well-maintained, clean, comfortable and run on time, the general public probably doesn't care how old they are. In the land of transit fans, the various websites have spirited discussions about paint jobs and car (and even bus) models; my comment is that the typical transit rider doesn't care if their ride is a CNG-hybrid bus or a wooden interurban if the above criteria are met.

If that were only true.

MARC and VRE acquired, through both a broker and a slew of weird UMTA regulations, several ex-C&NW METRA (Chicago) bilevels. The cars were all structurally and mechanically sound, but were still 40+ years old.

Both MARC and VRE had enjoyed the relative "luxury" of modern bilevels built in the 1990s. MARC also had the ex-PRR coaches, with soft 2-and-2 seating, supplementing the Nippon Sharyo single-level cars with "2 1/2-and-2" seating.

The standard term for the C&NW cars among many of the commuters on VRE was "cattle cars." There were unconfirmed reports that passengers were rejecting rides on the C&NW cars in favor of waiting 20-30 minutes for a train with newer cars.

The verdict I've heard from others in the field is that you could start a new commuter service with older cars like the C&NW cars (see Nashville's Music City Express), but bringing in older cars on a line where folks have already enjoyed roomier, softer, and/or "flashier" rolling stock is a recipe for trouble or rider revolt.

Oddly, there's an opposite effect: If you bring in modern cars like these (or LIRR "boxes", etc.) to an operation where "vintage" riding is expected (Strasburg, Conway Scenic, Nevada Northern, etc.), it doesn't matter how crowded the "Thomas the Tank Engine" crowds are, they're still going to hate you. (Oddly, a C&NW bilevel was in use by the Gettysburg Railway for a short time years ago, and I think three are still lurking around Florida's Gold Coast RR Museum somewhere, left over from a Thomas event.....)

"The verdict I've heard from others in the field is that you could start a new commuter service with older cars like the C&NW cars (see Nashville's Music City Express), but bringing in older cars on a line where folks have already enjoyed roomier, softer, and/or "flashier" rolling stock is a recipe for trouble or rider revolt."--Alexander D. Mitchell IV

Almost 30 years ago I was trying to promote the idea of a regular or semi-regular steam operation with authentic equipment in West Virginia (what I called the "Class I tourist railroad" concept); one of the routes being looked at was to run from the Baltimore-Washington area to Harpers Ferry, Martinsburg, and even Cumberland. Normally this would have been originating in the east and returning there, but at the time, the roundhouse in Hagerstown was being used as a steam base by Ross Rowland, and I was figuring to base the winter repairs for this operation there, too.

This would have required at least occasional ferry moves at the beginning and end of the operating season, which in this case would have been operated in the normal direction of the commuter trains. Why not keep the deadhead mileage and clutter on the mainline to a minimum by running the steam train on the commuter schedule? Operationally it could have made sense, but I wondered then--and now--what the reaction of the commuters would be to have their normal diesel ride turn into a black coal-burning steam engine and green heavyweight cars with openable windows and no air conditioning. . .

Actually, that would have looked right at home with the F-units and Budd RDCs that MARC had running then, not to mention the GP7s on Chessie System. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5P491UAECg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOCI0Gr4cqA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl3L0ZLa ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCGvXjCigOA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjuhayJp ... re=related

Now, this is more to my taste:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dsLOdfi_nQ