Since we are on to early engines rather than just engines mentioned in Bonanza locomotives, we need to think about Central Pacific No 1, the Stanford, displayed at CSRM.

By the way, C P Huntington's sister engine, the Judah likely still survives, sunk in the Sacramento River near Redding California...

A Western Pacific (of 1862) 1865 Norris built locomotive (or at least a locomotive that descended from said locomotive containing at least a few original parts is in the Travel Town collection in Los Angeles.

Randy

Randy,

What is known about the locomotive in the Sacramento River?

The Judah was owned by a logging company that used a car ferry across the river... it went for a swim and was not recovered.

It was rediscovered 30 years ago or so when a new bridge was being built... but not removed from the river.

I believe its location is known within a quarter of a mile or so. It is one of the few "lost locomotive" stories that holds up when facts are checked.

Randy

Randy -

The locomotive in the Sacramento at Anderson does not sound like the Judah, which was apparently an 0-8-0T built by Cooke.

Bob Hanft's book on the Red River Lumber Company has a chapter on the Anderson and Bella Vista which mentions the sunken locomotive.

He says that it was a 4-4-0 built by Stevens in 1868 for the San Francisco & Alameda as their "J.G. Kellogg", later CP 176, then a couple of other owners until the A&BV bought it in 1891.

He said it is believed to be the second locomotive built on the West Coast.

Is that locomotive only submerged, or is it partially or completely buried in the bottom? If it was discovered when building a bridge, wouldn't its location be known to be right next to the bridge today?

According to Best, Judah, C.P. No 4 was a Danforth-Cooke 4-2-2t a sister to C P Huntington when built...

I believe that this is the loco in the Sacramento River, but will need to check more notes before being sure....

Randy

"Since we are on to early engines rather than just engines mentioned in Bonanza locomotives, we need to think about Central Pacific No 1, the Stanford, displayed at CSRM."--Randy Hees

Of course, the problem was those other "honey, do" jobs that had to come first. . .

http://www.csrmf.org/visitor-informatio ... v-stanford

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 568&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 863&nseq=1

Someone (Randy?) brought up this site, which has this photo of the "T. D. Judah," mentioned above:

http://cprr.org/Museum/Locomotives/index.html

http://cprr.org/Museum/images/I_ACCEPT_ ... _Judah.jpg

Hey, this one isn't preserved, but I've been looking for it--maybe this is what was meant by "gaudy" in the 19th century? And what was that Phelger boiler this engine had?

http://cprr.org/Museum/images/I_ACCEPT_ ... _4-4-0.jpg

"WYOMING. The locomotive-building firm of Richard Norris & Son constructed the dazzling Wyoming primarily as a showpiece and used this lithograph of her to advertise their wares. Like most iron horses of her time, the Wyoming was a 4-4-0 or American type, splashed with bright colors, stars, pictures of eagles, and brightly burnished brasswork. There was even a blackand-white portrait of a bearded man, possibly Richard Norris himself, as a sort of trademark on the side of the cabvery likely on both sides. Although capstacks were commonly used on coalburners built between 1870 and 1910, they were extremely rare in 1856, when the Wyoming was built. Other distinctive features were the Gothic-arch windows in her cab and the ornamental outside bearing truck connecting her two pairs of pony-truck wheels [Caption Error--this is a "double bearing" truck, look closely and you can see the extra set of leaf springs between the wheels, along with part of the inside frame]. Coverdale and Colpitts Collection."

> I may be able to help with the identity of the man depicted on the cab of the Norris locomotive "Wyoming" ... According to John H. White, Jr., the portrait depicts a Mr. Phelger, who invented the patent boiler (identified by the long raised channel along the top of the boiler) used on the engine. On the other side of the cab was a genre painting of a small boy sleeping, protected by his dog. The boiler w as unsucessful - fatally weak, with no improvement in creating steam room. Phelger's boiler was advertised by Norris with exceptionally showy engines and the 1857 lithograph. Several other Phelger boilered engines were built by Norris for the Pennsylvania RR between 1857 and 62; all were rebuilt with conventional boilers shortly afterwards. All were unusually supplied with a much greater than usual amount of brass trim and brightwork. Wyoming was one of two engines built for the Lackawanna & Bloomsburg RR in Northestern Pennsylvania, and named for the Wyoming mountain range and coal seams. Paint schemes of Norris engines of this period ranged from opulant to gaudy, with purple, green and red combined with black, red or emerald green wheels. The Wyoming has gossy black wheels and heavy gold stripes on the spokes, which contrast with the red and apple green on the rest of the engine. Less exhuberant engines were green with red wheels. Black wheels were also favored by Norris's neighbor Baldwin in the early 1860s and may be indicitave of a regional painting style used by Philadelphia locomotive builders. No other 1860s era builder is known to have used them unless requested. The Pennsylvania RR – a heavy Baldwin customer – adopted black wheels as standard for all PRR locomotives in 1863. Baldwin shifted to red wheels in mid 1864, and the Baldwin engines built for the Western Pacific (one of which was photographed on construction train service along the Truckee River) are specified in the Baldwin paint data books as having red wheels. Lithographs of Norris engines have been extremely helpful in reconstructing the original appearance of the CPRR "Governor Stanford." Paint research by the California State Railroad Museum during restoration in 1979 revealed traces of apple green paint on the engine frame, similar to the paint schemes depicted in the Norris lithographs of 1855-60. When new, the engine literally glowed in green and vermilion and must have presented a handsome sight. —Jim Wilke

Looking around, here is a veteran that has been preserved for over a century, El Paso & Southwestern No. 1, built by Breese & Kneeland & Co. in 1857. Wonder how much of the original engine survived at the time of its retirement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso_%2 ... road_No._1

http://webcontent.utep.edu/tour/locomot ... how00.html

Looking through John White's "American Locomotives, An Engineering History," I find reference to something we shouldn't see at all, People's Railway No. 3, which is likely the oldest 4-4-0 anywhere. She may date to 1842, and was apparently built by Eastwick & Harrison. This engine is perhaps the closest relative we have to the first 4-4-0, the famous "Gowan & Marx" by the same builder:

http://www.readingrailroad.org/profiles ... m_pr3.html

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... C06724.JPG

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... C06725.JPG

Admittedly quite an oddity, we can not forget the "Rueben Wells," a special 0-10-0 tank locomotive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Wells_(locomotive)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... motive.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr2s.jpg

http://www.playle.com/listing.php?i=HOM ... HPSESSID=a

This is turning into a fascinating treasure hunt and voyage of discovery. . .

The Wyoming is indeed spectacularly ornate, but I would not call it gaudy. Gaudy describes some of the more modern era interpretations of these early locomotives. The Wyoming looks more like the interior of a cathedral, and the more I look at the Wyoming, the more it like it. I can just imagine that beauty rolling into town under a bright blue sky in the world of 1856.

Still amazing to find some of what is still around. . .and we haven't even gotten to the B&O Museum yet. . .

One engine that must be a rarity is the Natchez & Hamburg's "Mississippi," now listed as preserved at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Apparently this locomotive (from an Illinois Central predecessor) has been preserved as a relic for quite some time; I wonder what her story is? There doesn't seem to be that much on the web, and the engine's appearance has changed, even in preservation:

http://www.cosmeo.com/viewPicture.cfm?g ... 6&&nodeid=

http://www.cardcow.com/153048/natchez-h ... comotives/

Her cab is now missing, but I say, she looked a lot like an inspection locomotive while she had it.

http://www.survivingsteam.com/steam:74

While looking for photos of the "Mississippi," I came across this one of Carson & Tahoe No. 1, mislabeled by a postcard publisher as being from the Virginia & Truckee (thanks to Brian Norden for pointing out that this engine is still around, earlier in the thread):

http://www.cardcow.com/111184/old-engin ... comotives/

Zowie, there is more out there than you would think. . .

"I can just imagine that beauty rolling into town under a bright blue sky in the world of 1856."--Ron Travis

Aye, and can you imagine walking into the famous Currier & Ives prints of the then-under construction Pacific Railroad, to buy a ticket on a new railroad for a ride across a new land?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1TztGwvVCK4/T ... 6-Ives.jpg

http://www.barewalls.com/i/c/520611_Acr ... tinent.jpg

I normally am a fan of later, big black engines (note my user name, which is Ross Rowland's ex C&O 4-8-4). . .but I would love to make that trip behind those 4-4-0s. . .

One part of the original that was with it a couple of decades ago (and should be with it today after the more recent work) is the builder's plate.

I went to the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society meeting in El Paso back in the early 1980s. The locomotive was in a protective structure out at the University and the building was opened for us. I recall John White and others looking over the #1 and some one commented that it had one of the few builder's plates dating from before the Civil War.

As I recall the builder's plate is affixed to the side of the cylinder chest.

As the beginning of a new year approaches, we look backward to the beginning of railroads in America, and of course the place to look for that is Baltimore, and the B&O Railroad Museum.

What can be said about this place that doesn't recall the beginnings of American railroading almost two centuries ago? The site of the start of construction of the first common carrier railroad in America, the fact that its dedication and setting of a "first stone" was attended by the last living signer of the Declaration of Independence, the site of the first ticket sale in America? That this was an early site of railroad shops that not only repaired locomotives and cars, but built them, and provided materials (such as prefabricated structural parts) for other projects, such as roundhouse framing (the columns and trusses of the roundhouse in Martinsburg, W.Va. were prefabricated and test fitted at Baltimore)? The conversion of part of the site to a railroad museum early in the preservation era? And, from our perspective of looking at locomotives and other equipment, what may likely be the largest single collection of 19th century railroad equipment in North America, and almost all of it from one company?

In no particular order, simply because there is so much. . .

No. 57, the "Memnon:"

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 676&nseq=0

http://nc-chap.org/chap/images/memnon1200.jpg

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/7 ... 974ecc.JPG

http://theeclecticdilettante.files.word ... 10-137.jpg

The "John Hancock." a "Grasshopper:"

http://www.rgusrail.com/album/mdboround ... ock_02.jpg

No. 25, the "William Mason;" how much of the original engine survives? How closely does it resemble what Mason delivered? I notice, among other things, a wagontop boiler and firebox, which was not typical of Mason. Did Mason wind up building the engine this way, or does it carry a replacement boiler?

http://www.rgusrail.com/album/mdboround ... son_06.jpg

http://www.rgusrail.com/album/mdboround ... son_10.jpg

The recently restored 147, the former "Thatcher Perkins" of 1863; of note is how this authentic restoration shows a relatively utilitarian approach to locomotive painting and finishing on the Baltimore & Ohio, even at this early date:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhite2178 ... /lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhite2178 ... otostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/backes01/6113955828/

Bet Ron Travis will be interested in those tender trucks:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/471 ... 52bbc2.jpg

This one's a replica, but it was done with apparently a good deal of research at the time, and is likely as close as we can get to the early 4-2-0s of America:

http://huskerluster.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... useum.html

Another 4-6-0, also recently restored:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/backes01/6 ... otostream/

And as it used to be:

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/sh ... e-/cat/529

http://www.railarchive.net/centprog/r_winans.htm

A sister survives in the Museum of Transportation at St. Louis:

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1007/bo173.jpg

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0001/nmot005.jpg

A workhorse 2-8-0 from the 1880s, No. 545, long known as the "A. J. Cromwell:"

http://www.rgusrail.com/album/mdboround ... ell_03.jpg

Good photos of No. 600, an experimental 2-6-0, are hard to come by. Recent photos show the engine heavily damaged after the roof collapse at the museum some years ago, and apparently it still awaits its turn in the shop. What I could find is below:

http://eriksenphoto.smugmug.com/Trains/ ... FPrDx-A-LB

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1007/bo600.jpg

General photo site links for some of the pix above:

http://www.rgusrail.com/mdboroundhouse.html

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr358.htm

Another general photo collection, of note for dating to 1953-1955:

http://eriksenphoto.smugmug.com/Trains/ ... 8896_FPrDx

And this isn't anywhere near all that is in there, and doesn't even touch cars, nor the more modern power that is my normal interest. . .a national treasure, indeed a world treasure. . .thanks to the Museum, and to the people who photographed the exhibits, and share them on the internet. . .

And still there is more, including late 19th century 2-8-0s from the N&W, and somewhere there is a T-boilered Shay of great age, and I believe a Climax from the 1890s, I think it's the one at Clark's Trading Post. . .and who knows what else there is. . .got to do more looking. . .

For more information about the "Grasshopper" locomotives see the newest (just out) Railfan and Railroad carrying the date February, 2012.

It has an article written by John White about the B&O's "Grasshopper" locomotives. It has both a narrative history a couple of roster lists (B&O's locomotives and other owners).

Continuing to look for surviving 19th century steam, we find some old 2-8-0s, those classic workhorses from the steam age. Three examples survive from the road known most for its modern steam power, the Norfolk & Western.

Perhaps the most intriguing of the lot is the former No. 305, built by Roanoke Machine Shops in 1892, before the Shops were purchased by the N&W. This engine left N&W ownership to become Mathieson Alkali/Mathieson Chemical No. 11 in 1921, and was still in service until at least 1960! She is preserved in good cosmetic condition in Saltville, Va.:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 043&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 419&nseq=1

http://www.blueridgenrhs.org/secondary/ ... ines27.jpg

The other two engines, sisters 6 and 7, ran on a branch with light bridges and rail until the late 1950s. No. 6 is preserved in Roanoke, at the Virginia Transportation Museum, and No. 7 is on display in Bluefield, W.Va.:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 505&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=304108

A 19th century 2-8-0 survives from the Standard Railroad of the World; this is of course No. 1187, in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania:

http://www.altoonaworks.info/pics/vinta ... can_15.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=2795802

The East Broad Top supposedly felt that steam locomotives, given proper care, would never grow old. This seems to have also been the case with Dardanelle & Russelville's No. 9, a 2-6-0 now on display at Mid-Continent Railway Museum. She doesn't look at all like a machine from the 1880s:

http://www.blueridgenrhs.org/secondary/ ... ines09.jpg

And we haven't touched the assorted 19th century 2-8-0s that are still with us from Colorado. . .

Have fun.

Reviving the saga of the Anderson & Bella Vista locomotive in the Sacramento River near Anderson, CA...

People are actually still looking for it (although it apparently is not the Judah but the J. G. Kellogg):

http://www.andersonvalleypost.com/news/2010/dec/14/salvage-locomotive/

But without success as of February, 2011:

http://www.andersonvalleypost.com/news/2011/feb/15/searchers-fail-find-locomotive/