"Take one of these locos, which costs much less to get into operation than building a whole new one from scratch, and approach the Class Ones or whoever. Tell us what they say."

Until you figure in converting all of the main bearings from friction to roller....because you're main gripe was that you can't take a friction bearing locomotive on some of these railroads. And taking one of those locomotives negates the conversation of a brand new build. One of those locomotives is not a PRR T1, NYC Hudson/Niagara, SR Ps-4. The whole point of this conversation being the discussion of getting a locomotive that we DON'T have. No matter how much you may not like the idea of new builds, they are happening. Both here in the US and over seas. So give me one good reason why we can't build brand new steam locomotives, when it all ready been done....and being done...and will be done. To say that something that is all ready going on is impossible just makes it look like you are being negative for the sake of being negative.


www.a1steam.com

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/an ... ia-219483/

http://leviathan63.com/index.html (for both LEVIATHAN and the still being constructed "York" locomotive)

There are more that I can give you to prove that it's viable. People wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't. And thankfully, some people let all the negativity go in one ear and out the other....

Much like you let logic go in one ear and out the other.

If I understand this conversation correctly, it seems that nobody is saying that a replica cannot be constructed, it is that a replica is not a good idea, as there are plenty of steam locomotive we do have that sit idle, waiting for somewhere to go. This is the difference, as mentioned by Mr. Mitchell and others, between the US and Britain. Until you figure out a way to get what we have already restored back on the road, then there really isn't a need to build a new locomotive, of a type that is "lost" or not.

Finally, with respect for the Train Festival analogy of drawing lots of people, or moving a locomotive over great distances, I should point out that the last two Train Festivals, the one in Michigan and the one in the Quad Cities, failed to make any money, and in fact it has been reported that that the most recent Train Festival is still in the red, and being sued by one of the locomotive providers.

People are not being negative when they point out that right now, there is a surplus of mainline ready steam, waiting for a place to go. Some of them have roller bearings on all axles. Until you figure out how to put some of this steam back to work, then the idea of new mainline steam is just a pipe dream.

Also the Leviathan and York replicas are not mainline steam. While they have to meet FRA requirements, it is so they can operate at places like IRM, and not pulling 25 plus coaches down the Burlington's "racetrack" out of Chicago Union Station.

It is okay to dream, but unless those dreams are grounded in the cold, hard reality, then that is all they are. Calling those who are grounded in reality "negative" won't change that reality.

I somehow quoted myself, apoligize for the duplication.

If the amount of energy that goes into this subject every time it comes up were directed usefully we'd have several more locos restored by now.

If you really want to build a non-provincial loco from scratch, how 'bout a USRA 4-6-2 or 4-8-2, which could then be decorated for any of several different owners?

But realistically, we in the USA are not in the same situation as those in the UK and comparing the two situations makes no sense. Those folks on the right side of the pond have all the advantages that we don't. So if you really need a "steam fix," a few hours in a tin can will land you there and you have nearly 200 Heritage Railways from which to choose. Granted, UK steam is an acquired taste, but if you close your eyes, the sound is very much the same. Until, of course, they blow that "peanut roster" whistle......Peep, peep......(another acquired taste).....

I guess we're then back to short rides behind 2-6-0's etc. at 15 mph.....Dream on...

Regarding main line steam and places to run, we have to remember that two things happened in the USA in the mid 50's to the mid 60's. Steam went out of service AND passenger service ended. While steam lasted longer in the UK, passenger business remained alive and well. Heritage steam operation in the UK is a passenger hauling proposition made possible because the railways there are managed as a NATIONAL system AND passengers are not an alien commodity. As far as I know, nobody uses restored steam for freight service.

In the USA, the rail network is a (99.9%) for-profit freight system. Getting the operators, whether they are class 1 or short lines, to give up some of their capacity to equipment and passengers that were repudiated 60 years ago is a very hard sell. And with the continued rapid growth of the freight business, it just gets harder and harder to find a railroad interested in sharing its limited resources.

The railroads must be cooperative if there is to be any hope of main line steam operations in this country. Frustrating as it is, that is the picture we face.

As the creator of this thread I would just like to say, "Wasn't that an interesting video. I thoroughly enjoyed it."

Sorry for introducing the whole "PRR T1" thing. I've hung around here long enough to know what might (will) happen. I probably shoudn't have gone there, even in jest.

The thread was really meant to be about an interesting video and the wonderful accomplishment of the A-1 Society for building the 60163. Some day I hope to see it in person.

Now, onto finding that barn with the Reading G1 stored inside. Or was that at the bottom of a quarry. I can't remember :)

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote "(Conversation from last night: Tucson, AZ is generally regarded as a day's drive from Flagstaff or Prescott.)"

I think this comment shows a significant difference in people's additude between areas in this country of high population density and low population density. I know a lot of people around the west who consider a 250 to 300 mile drive a good start to the day. Easterners do not have a feel for the distances in the west. Just put your self on I-10 in El Paso Texas when a traveler comes up and asks "Does this State ever end?"

Robby Peartree

A day's drive in Britain would put you from one corner of the island/kingdom to the other--not counting long ferry rides to the Orkneys or Shetlands.

With my wife coming from the aforementioned Prescott, I know full well the mental, philosophical, and spatial differences involved--a VAST contribution to the "coastal-urban-versus-flyover-country" (or "Liberal La-La Land-vs.-Jesusland") divide that has developed in the United States.

The mainland of Great Britain, as I recall, is approximately the size of New England, New York State, and New Jersey, with a bit of Pennsylvania thrown in--or, in another context, the size of Oregon, and about one-third the size of Texas. Simply put, more things can happen in a smaller area with easier access.

Imagine if you could get to Steamtown, Cass, the Grand Canyon RR, Texas State RR, or the Sierra RR with a day's not-that-hard drive from anywhere in the nation. We'd have a different rail preservation scene, wouldn't we?

The A1 Project in Britain started with a bunch of buffs saying "wouldn't it be nice...?" around pints in a pub. The difference, aside from more liberal access to the rails for steam in the UK (also critical), was that they laid out a plan and took nearly two decades to see it through. This is different from a high-school kid on the internet pestering NS, CSX, Amtrak, or whoever. It COULD happen in the USA--but it has to proceed cautiously and deliberately, not casually and ambitiously. And there's no use in doing it at all without someplace for the hard work to show itself.

Here's an idea: Integrate such a project with Steamtown. Make the construction an exhibit over the course of the decade or more.

"And there's no use in doing it at all without someplace for the hard work to show itself."

I agree with most of what you said, and especially the above. But here's the rub. We have backed ourselves into a "chicken or the egg" situation. How do you go about getting a place for it to run with nothing to show for it? I would venture a guess that most people would look at you and laugh if you went to them for permission to run something that hasn't been built yet....that they can't see....or inspect. Going to the railroad first (like trying to talk about it on this forum) is a sure fire way to get chastised, laughed at, and even told that you're an idiot. That's all I have to say about that.

P.S. Some of the people working on projects like this ARE NOT "a high-school kid on the internet pestering NS, CSX, Amtrak, or whoever."

When I worked for the NN there were several volunteers who traveled several hundred miles to donate their time and effort. One example for you, a father and son team had a unique itinerary. The Son would fly from San Diego to Reno on Thursday afternoon. Friday morning they did the drive from Carson to Ely (300+ miles) and then worked the Friday afternoon locomotive rental and then the passenger train. On Saturday and Sunday they would work 12 Hours each day. On Monday they would work the passenger train and rental and then reverse the trip from Ely to Carson and the Son would fly back Tuesday. While I was there this was a monthly routine for them about eight months of the year. All of this effort to a remote part of Nevada to do something they love. The NN is not alone in this level of support. The C&TS brings people from many parts of the west to work at the work sessions. It is not your distance from volunteers that determines their efforts it is how you treat them.

By encouraging people no matter their location to become as fully vested in the project as they wish you can get a lot of people to support your cause. People will travel great distances to volunteer if they fell that they are making an appreciated contribution. How you treat your supporters determines what you get out of them not the distance from your project. If you discourage them from exploring their interest they will only loose interest in helping you. Keeping secrets and personal bias about how an organization should behave and where their supporters should be does not help an organization.

Several times I made the Drive from El Paso, Texas to Williams, AZ in a day and still had time to do something else at one end or the other. I have a friend who has traveled from Flagstaff, Arizona, to both Chama, New Mexico, and Ely, Nevada, to volunteer in the past. Today he is frustrated with both groups. Not by the distance separating him from them but the way he feels he has been treated. Volunteers will do a lot of good but only if you treat them with respect.

Respectfully,
Robby Peartree