UK has 60 MILLION people in an area approx 200 miles by 800 miles from which to pull their Customer base from.

Australia will run a double Northern either late this year or early next.

TH

Oh for the good old days when PRR 4-4-0 & 4-4-2 doubleheaded at quite a high speed on Amtrack. Two memorable trips.

Do these cars "comply with Amtrak Tier-1 standards, for passenger cars operating up to 125mph", or are they just "certified for Amtrak service", which could be at a lower speed?
Some of Mr. Levin's trips on Amtrak and other railroads have been restricted to 90 m.p.h., because that's all that Amtrak certifies one of the cars in the consist. Are there any non-Amtrak or California cars that meet the conditions of the 1st quote above?
I suggest that there are some railroads that are still allowing "certified for Amtrak service" without requiring the extra work for "passenger cars operating up to 125mph".

IT DOES NOT MATTER. TOURIST AND EXCURSION OPERATIONS ARE ENTIRELY EXEMPT FROM 49 CFR 238 AND 239.

Congress and FRA have done THEIR parts to allow you to run these trains. Now it's time to stop complaining and do your part.

But none of the "excursion lines," with the possible exception of the now-moribund Blue Mountain & Reading, and the Great Central Railway in the UK, actually own a "main line."

To duplicate a 70-mph run with a long train and a big locomotive in the United States (and presumably Canada), you're going to need the cooperation and permission of either Amtrak, a commuter agency, or one of the "Big Seven" major railroads--or maybe a big regional like Iowa Interstate, Buckingham Branch, or the like with a speed-capable main line.

Those railroads are free to set the parameters as they so choose. You may be able to negotiate with them, but as far as I know, they all fall back on the "Amtrak standards" as their "default" conditions for mainline access.

Yes, there are exceptions, maybe: we've seen 261, we've seen 3751, and an occasional jaunt with 765, 4449, etc. But, bluntly put, we can't do the Andy Hardy "Hey, gang! Let's put together a train trip!" thing anymore, and insurance is only one of the reasons.

"I suggest that there are some railroads that are still allowing "certified for Amtrak service" without requiring the extra work for "passenger cars operating up to 125mph".

Jim,
None of the 261 cars are certified for 125mph and there is no need for them to be certified for that fast of operation, even if they could be brought to that standard. OTOH, it might be of value to Bennett Levin to have the flexibility to operate his cars on the Northeast Regional trains in addition to "Heritage" consists on the NEC. I don't pretend to speak for Mr. Levin concerning this matter, though.
Don C.

Gentlemen -

When we are talking about someone, can we not please clarify who it is we are referring to? Specifically, WHICH Mr. Levin?

Thanks very much.

Les

I don't understand where the "but" is in there. Establishing a suitable excursion line is part of "doing your part". I don't see where your logic goes from there. Nobody owes you an excursion line. You seem to want something that isn't yours. If you want it then you better put a ring on it.


Yeah, you better get going. Make some deals and turn some minds. I'm sure the Brits had to go through the same.

Not really. There WAS a spell, between the end of BR steam operations in August 1968 and the return of GWR 4-6-0 King George V in 1975 (I think, going off of memory here) where all steam traction was officially banned from British Rail, with the curious exception of LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman, because owner Alan Pegler had somehow secured an official waiver from top management before the blanket ban and was "grandfathered" in. Once the door was cracked open (pretty much for the 150th anniversary of the Stockton & Darlington in 1975), it's never really been closed again, and for years BR even officially ran many of the excursion programs themselves as scheduled weekly outings during the summer on regular routes like the Settle & Carlisle and to Scarborough.

But we were talking about doubleheaded "big" steam at speed. There is no British excursion main line in preservation, even the Great Central, where one could operate at sustained high speed. I don't think you can find one anywhere in the world. When you see it in Britain, it's on a main line. And, as discussed in my first post in this thread, the main lines are effectively "public property." Unlike in North America.

I fully well agree that no private corporate owner of a main line is obligated to allow a guest operator of any sort--a freight train operator, a short line switching operation, Bill Gates' private train, or whatever--onto their property. At the same time, however, even in the United States, railroad lines have long been viewed as a quasi-public utility, in common with power companies, gas pipelines, and the like. And to decree that, just to make up a relevant example, a main like like the Santa Fe line from Trinidad, Co. over Raton Pass to Santa Fe, N.M., which now sees but one Amtrak train a day in each direction, cannot be used for a single (or series of) steam excursion(s) simply defies common sense, unless you're a risk-management attorney.

"There WAS a spell, between the end of BR steam operations in August 1968 and the return of GWR 4-6-0 King George V in 1975 (I think, going off of memory here) where all steam traction was officially banned from British Rail, with the curious exception of LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman, because owner Alan Pegler had somehow secured an official waiver from top management before the blanket ban and was "grandfathered" in."

KGV ran again (after retirement in December 1962) on the main line from 1971.

Main line steam ended prior to that when FS came to the USA in 1969 although the contract to run on BR did not expire until 1972.

So in theory main line steam in the UK has never been completely suspended.

TH

Back after a couple of days with a !!@#$%!! stomach bug. . .ugh!

The wonderful feel of the video clip and others from Great Britain is just what makes main line steam so appealing. Shortlines and narrow gauge roads are fun and beautiful, at least to us, but the main line with speed is something else again. . .

I post a fair amount on a webpage on high speed rail in California, and that has occasionally lead to putting up things like historic footage from YouTube of things like Cab-Forwards, Daylights, and Pensinsula commuter service there. I still recall the comments by another poster, an Amtrak ticket agent who is also a rail enthusiast, who had visited the museum at Sacramento, and had taken note of the last Cab-Forward there. Apparently he is a bit younger than me, and for some reason, has not had the chance to see steam in action. Watching some of the footage, including NYC Hudsons and some fast pacing with B&O Pacifics, he said he "never realized those clunky mechanical monsters could become so fast and graceful in motion."

That's the draw of mainline steam!

"UK has 60 MILLION people in an area approx 200 miles by 800 miles from which to pull their Customer base from."--Trevor Heath

And depending on the part of the country you're in, you can probably do better than that here. How many people are in New York City alone, 10 million or so? How big is Los Angeles? The whole population of the country is something like 300 million. Should be some good demographics there, if we had a better set of odds, and the right locations. . .and roads tailored to the locations. Longer trips are right when you have the scenery and/or history to go with them (D&S, C&TS, WP&Y, very possibly others).

"Why can't we get scenes like this in the US?"

"Congress and FRA have done THEIR parts to allow you to run these trains. Now it's time to stop complaining and do your part."--Robert McDowell

Robert, I hate to sound so contrarian, but have you tried this recently? Do you have any idea at all of how hostile rail management is to anything like this today, for reasons both real and imagined? Do you have any clue at all what it is like to try to accomplish something like this not only among railroaders, but bankers, insurance men and so forth? Did you not take note of the pertinent comments by Mr. Mitchell?

"1) In the USA, litigation has replaced baseball as the national pastime. The result is that insurance is higher, which makes ticket prices higher, and also gives executives of private railroad companies the reason to see a video like that and think "ye gods what horrific risk exposure!"

"2) Inasmuch as the British rail system, like most of the European Union save France, has been denationalized, the actual rail infrastructure is still under the ownership and control of the national government under the Network Rail banner and administration. The franchises issued to operators typically mandate a form of "open access" whereas if someone otherwise abiding by the rules wants to run/charter a train, they have to allow it. This is not to say that anyone can run anything, but it definitely does away with the likes of the fiasco whereas CSX refused Western Maryland Scenic 734 the chance to go ten miles over their main to another line for a week. Rather than the heritage/whatever operator being at the mercy of the tracks' owner/operator, the franchise would have to show just cause why the heritage loco/car couldn't operate--because, after all, the heritage operator is, indeed, "part owner" of the track, in a sense. (A parallel here would be if Amtrak were required to sell you a "turnkey" charter, including insurance, on any main line as long as you met all other conditions. Of course, we can conjure up multiple reasons, from excepted track to shortage of equipment to the freight railroads saying "no way," why that doesn't happen here."

And what about the comments from G. W. Laepple?

"Here's the bottom line: over the past 50 years or so, corporate executives, including railroaders, have evolved from engineers and operating men who worked their way up through the ranks, to lawyers and financial gurus moving the pieces around to enhance earnings. They have little connection to the past and correspondingly minimal affection or appreciation for institutional history."

With those attitudes, you get things like this to keep us away, as noted by Doug Debs 2472:

"There is another big problem with mainline steam excusions in the USA: most railroads now insist that all cars in the train comply with Amtrak Tier-1 standards, which are for passenger cars operating up to 125mph. This eliminated all historic passenger cars in good condition as they operated though the 1990s."

I have a clue. I attempted some things along these lines years ago, when the environment wasn't near as hostile as it is today. I got nowhere, and likely never will in this world. Brother Rowland can't get anywhere right now, either, and look at his record of accomplishment.

Mr. Rowland advocates patience, and there is much to be said for that, but all the patience in the world does no good at all in this time we are in now. I've only been waiting for 20 or 30 years.

What makes you think it's so easy to do? What makes you think any of us can do better in the current circumstances?

It is certainly a challenge. It will not be solved by whining or by blaming others. It should not be solved by Eurosocialist taking of other mens' property. We're not going to unwind the Staggers Act and go back to Penn Central. If you want steam trains to run in America on the scale you're talking about, it's going to take a lot of consent building, consensus building, and developing of new standards of practice that fit the application. This isn't about turning wrenches, it's about turning minds. Think of a NARCOA for steam engines. I note that NARCOA is humble: they have no sense of entitlement, no one holds any fantasies that speeder clubs "deserve" access somehow. Because they are in a more realistic mindframe, they are in mesh with the minds at the railroads they talk to. As a result they are able to get access from people who have no reason to give it to them.

I said standards of practice, and the first example of that is coach standards. Best I can see there are three standards:
- The gentle "everything looks ok" standard imposed by FRA on ALL tourist railways large and small
- Amtrak's standards for private varnish movement
- 49 CFR 238/239 Tier 1.
The host railroads need a standard, so they grab for the second or third one and that is unachievable for us. We sorely need a "middle standard" between the first and the second. Something that tourist railways can actually achieve.

Yes, what an incredible run that was, too! I'm not sure what speeds they were going but they were downright hauling when I saw them tearing through Aurburn, Northbound out of Tacoma.

http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/data/558/TacomaNorthbound_015.jpg
There was also the 4449-700 double head run to Wishram, WA along the old SP&S in 2005 for the NRHS convention. I know they weren't going 80, but they sure were making a good clip as it was darned tough to get ahead of them!

One of our problems is we do not work or play together very well. That fragmentation serves to keep everyone off the Class Ones and bigger regionals. We as an industry need to come to the Class Ones with a PLAN, with the stated goal of making them comfortable with our locomotives being on their tracks, hauling trainloads of passengers and mixing in with the rest of the parade. This needs to be done where the major operatiors can get all of the pertinent Class One players in one room for an initial meeting...check your egos at the door.... and work out some boiler plate agreement that everyone can reap the benefits and give the railroads a measure of comfort. As far as I know, no one has done that. This is more important than protecting the home turf...this is protecting all the turf.

More of what I would like to see here, in American form--what is with this music is great (as is the music, at least I think so), but how nice it would have been to see US counterparts for it, which would fit so much better. . .

(Go to "Full Screen" to view, this looks that good)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41ZAv7aUUp4

Blues, jazz, and American style railroading--the world still loves that part of us, and we miss it all still. . .