You can't take action but you can still yell at them. And, if the situation is severe enough, contact police or the railroad safety hotline.

I'm sure there are enough people on NS who remember exactly what to expect with an excursion program and do what they need to do. It's been a while but they are not new at this.

One difference between then and now is that now that "film" is free, while waiting for a train to show up you can do lots of zero cost documentation of people deliberately being stupid. If an incident occurs you can offer your evidence to the railroad to help with their defense.

Steve

Did I say they were on railroad property? (They weren't, that I recall.)



I think you need to get out more. I can say for the record that I haven't seen one of those supposedly-obligatory railroad hats covered with pins or patches in fifteen years or so. Those were apparently de rigueur in the 1960s and 1970s; the "fashion" these days seems to be company-issue baseball caps ordered from the catalogs or websites of BNSF, NS, Amtrak, etc.



Take my word for it: I have seen such antics by "noobs" or people who appear to not be knowledgeable about trains. I have in my in-box right now a "report from the field" from the AT&SF 3751 "death crawl" across Arizona yesterday, where the county sheriff's deputy was supervising some "antics" at one of the few populated spots along the line. The railfans were elsewhere (because they knew choice locations); the public was at the easily accessible spots, prompted by newspaper coverage before the event.



The point is that it's easy to point at ANY person acting foolishly along the tracks around a steam special or the like and simply call them a "railfan." And it's prejudicial, and to some extent bigoted.

Sure, one moron can destroy a whole season of excursions, or in this case far worse. But may I take a different look at it and say, self-policing is the way to go, rather than calling the RR police into action. If you document some clod climbing a signal tower, hang onto the image, call him out on his behavior. Fine. But go running to the NS with evidence of such behaviors? I would council not to do so. By waving the evidence in their faces, aren't you effectively saying, "See, some of us can't be trusted, and here's the proof of it!" NS isn't new to this game, as has been pointed out by other posters. In most cases of trespassing, etc., nobody gets hurt. The railroad is aware of this. For whatever good reasons, NS has decided to bring back this popular, pro-public, pro-railfan, program. Showing them that most of us are trustworthy by example is the way to go.

That is what I said, try to discourage but if they won't listen then take the next step. I was not implying to call NS police. Thanks to homeland security trespassing issues are a federal offense, local law enforcement will/should take it rather seriously.
The idea is to prevent incidents, police can aid in this. To just let an individual do something and then confront later is much to passive of an approach for the offense has (at that point) occurred and in the example of a signal tower....... NS already knows.

Cheers, Jason

If it wasn't on your personal property, and you didn't have permission to be there, it's still an unlawful intrusion that interferes with one's person or property....or in one word...TRESPASSING. Your justification that what you did is ok (because it wasn't railroad property) for the glory of "the shot" still does not make it right, safe, or legal.





See my first response. I don't need to go tresspassing on other peoples property to go take a picture of a train. Likewise, I do not need to associate myself with people who think that braking the law and putting peoples lives in danger to take a picture is ok. I'll stay associated with railfans who act responsably and don't put other peoples lives and or property at risk. There are plenty of ways to enjoy railroading without being a detriment.




I will agree with that. That's the first time you didn't try and justifying braking the law, and blaming it all on the "goofers".





Mr. Mitchell my friend....Prejudice is "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed BEFOREHAND or without knowledge, thought, or reason." My opinion is not formed without knowledge. It has formed over years of watching some railfans climb signal towers...dart through traffic...trespass...race trains to crossings...stand on ROW (sometimes in the gauge) to fowl trains...cut, climb over and under, and pass through standing cuts of cars in yards while we were swithcing on those cuts...rifle through crew members bags for paperwork trinkets for their "collection" of switch lists...I can go on and on.

And if you are trying to accuse me of being a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion....well, maybe you better take a long hard look in the mirror first. I'm not the one who is trying to justify illegal activity by blaming it on other people when I myself have admitted on this very thread to the wrong doing that is being discussed as unacceptable.

I take offense to that sir as I have said twice before and now for a third time that (see below)






Im going to agree with RDG 179, jasonsobczynski, Gary Gray, superheater, filmteknik, and Richard Glueck in that there needs to be oversight of EVERYONE to prevent incidents. This is not just about the railfans....and not all railfans are out there being a detriment and breaking the law. But as long as you have railfans like ADM4 who want to blame the "goofers" for all of the wrong doing while they tropse about trespassing and putting themselfs and others in danger for the "good of the shot", no matter what anyone says, it will always be someone elses fault...as well as what seems to be a carte blanche for some in the railfan comunity to act in ways that make everyone look bad.

Look, the basic problem I have with this concept is "I am not my brother's keeper."

Yes, I've seen loony behavior by railfans over the years, I've also see rather egregious behavior by railfans "self-policing"--like stones thrown at the one guy set up in the view of the photo line.

At least four times over the years while railroading or railfanning, I've been subjected to "investigation" or "questioning" by people supposedly acting to "protect" or "self-police" but who turned out to be fake cops or self-empowered "security agents." One of those cases--a fire policeman in Dauphin County, Pa. who took it upon himself to use his flashing red light to pull me over and ask me about my speed--resulted in criminal prosecution of impersonating a police officer. I once had a railfan repeatedly block my (railfan-looking, out-of-state) car from driving back to Fostoria Tower in Ohio until I told him "Look, I'm on official CSX business expediting a special shipment; I have a release to be on the property, and documents to check with the railroad here. Now, are you going to step aside or do I call the CSX police?"

As a group, we can certainly nag one another to act safely and "do the right thing." But that does not empower us to take it upon ourselves to tell others what to do, at least not in any way other than the extremely diplomatic handshake-and-schmooze practiced frequently by a certain steam charter operator in the past. And, as Brother Glueck points out, summoning the railroad police for anything short of actual grave endangerment of persons or property (like placing big objects on the railhead) is likely to be more counterproductive than productive. And those who are so inclined to deliberately engage in risky behavior are certainly NOT the type that are likely to listen to some stranger telling them "Hey, it's really not safe to go out standing on that bridge for your photo..." Ask any museum docent that has had to deal with (as reported in this forum in another discussion) parents letting their kids climb on a museum display.

I guess what my real problem with this whole "let's police ourselves!" mentality is that--like far too many chain e-mails, Facebook posts, online petitions, and whatnot online--it ultimately boils down to an effort to make oneself feel productive or useful (or superior to another group) without, in reality, actually meaningfully addressing the problem at hand. We've repeatedly failed to legislate against stupidity, and I fear that absent the strategy I originally proposed above, there is simply no way we're going to do away with such antics, no matter how hard we, NS, the police, or self-appointed "safety agents" try otherwise. The problem of overzealous or misbehaving railfans/public spectators has existed (and been documented here and there) ever since the first 1935 Hoosac Tunnel & Wilmington railfan charter, and it's not going away anytime soon. The only real difference is that since the 1970s litigation has replaced baseball as the national pastime.

Here we go with that lack of responsibility thing again.....not my brothers keeper.....


Ok. So your not your brothers keeper either. How about a resonsible railfan? Maybe a human being? Maybe someone who has enough experiance and where with all to teach other railfans the difference between right and wrong? Or does not being your brothers keeper mean that you can just turn a blind eye to dangerous activities...like not saying anything to people chucking rocks on a photo line. That sounds like a GREAT time to me, and a responsible way of dealing with the issue. You just keep solidifying my thought process and my point......great way to show that railfans can be responible....by coiming out with "I'm not my brothers keeper"

Glad that the people below have found their way into the "responsible" railfan group.

http://www.protecttheline.com/
http://www.citizensforrailsecurity.com/crs-home.html


This all boils down to responsibility. Responsibility for you and the groups of people that you choose to be associated with. Your repeated arguements trying to justfy this adverse behavior hold about as much water as a wet paper bag with a hole in both ends and a slit up the middle. Now that being said....if you have an issue with responsible railfans watching out for things like potential suicides, stolen equipment, trespassers
lost children found near tracks, or suspicious articles or vehicles left on tracks then maybe you need to get out more and think about a new hobby.




But yet in trying to address the problem at hand, your solution is to say that there is no solution because you are not your brothers keeper and as a railfan you have no responsibility to yourself and your perported hobby other than to chop down other peoples trees and such to get your picture.
Meaningfully addressing the issue does not start with pushing blame somewhere esle when it rests smack dab in the lap of the people doing it. You can do one of two things. You can perpetuate the wrong and hurtful behavior to the hobby....or you can stop using excuses and make it better. Those are the only two choices. When it comes right down to it, either you take what you know and teach people the right way to enjoy railfaning, or you become part of the problem we are talking about. And from your miriade of excuses as to why you can not be a part of the solution, I'm inclined to lean towards putting you into the group of foamers who just want their "shot" at the expense of everyone elses hobby, and all the rest of us be darned. Not all railfans are bad, but judas priest some of you are misguided. And I'm the one who needs to get out more........

Apples and oranges.

For the record, I am a "member" (for what little it's actually worth) of both of these programs. And I've not been in a situation where either has been of any use to me or the railroads yet (though to be fair I live away from, and only visit occasionally, BNSF turf, and the NS program just started). I've done far more simply with the phone numbers posted at railroad crossings and my own specific knowledge of railroad operational contacts.

You mischaraterize my arguments as "justifying adverse behavior." I am not. I'm simply suggesting that, although we should certainly advocate and lobby for "responsible" railfan behavior (which, if really taken to a logical extreme, means never photographing a train except from the asphalt of a public road, path, or square, because otherwise we can never be certain exactly whether or not we're "trespassing"), the advocacy need not extend to ordering others about with self-appointed authority--which, I predict, is exactly where this mentality will ultimately lead, by the same percentage of "bad apples" within railfans as the "bad apples" of the misbehavior by railfans and the general public that we're condemning here: small but not statistically insignificant.

It would be nice if the railfan community COULD politely, diplomatically, and discretely lead that minority of railfans and the public who have "gone astray" to a safer, less publicly objectionable route to enjoyment of this avocation. And I have as much faith in the field to do so as I have faith in the United Nations to bring about world peace.

Now, I will grant you, I've not had an opportunity to "chase" anything like a mainline excursion in a decade or more--the pleasures of living in the Northeast, mind you. The last few real "chases" I've been on were deep in the Southwest, at times miles from the nearest pavement, and when you're that far from "civilization" a whole different set of standards, including leaving the gates the way you found them and watching out for your fellow man even if he's a stranger, takes effect.

Before I click the keys for this response, I just want to say that I am in no way going after you Alex, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.





How so? I would think that railfans taking responsibility for the actions of their own would not be adverse, or an apples and oranges kind of thing. Also, it can have the effect of turning some minds that are pretty solidly against the foamerific railfan ideal.





If you're not justifying the behavior, then you are at the very least pleading ignorance of a plauseable solution and the in-ability to make a change even on the level and abilities that you have to make the stuation better. "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" (MLK Jr). Sorry, but just from the way you have workded your arguement I believe you to know a lot more about a good an equitable way to solve this issue than you are letting on.

Again. Positive and lasting change begins when people such as yourself make the effort to mentore younger railfans and teach them the right way. The change you are claiming to want to see does not happen by itself, or overnight. Railfans (myself included) have brought this issue down on themselves by allowing this type of behavior to be tollerated, and feeling that it is not their place to watch out for the "goofers" who misbehave as well. This is to the detriment of everyone else who wants to enjoy the hobby, because in this case, especially when dealing with the bigger railroads, the actions of the few have a vast effect on the enjoyment of the majority. All it takes is those one or two bad railfans or goofers to mess it up for everyone....that is why maybe you should stop always poo pooing these efforts and maybe help with them. It's your hobby too, and I would guess from the way that you talk about it, that you enjoy it very much.

These posts have absolutely nothing to do with Railway Preservation News. I am amazed that you grown men debate over and over and over this garbage.

Have you figured out who's bigger yet? I mean really?! REALLY!

I appreciate the members who do not use this site as a debating forum.

I appreciate the members, such as myself, who enjoy sharing information and posting information about REAL things going on in repair shops, on main-line trips, display events, and museum specials.

We all should constantly express our gratitude to the men and women who allow and assist in making railway history possible in all forms. I realize that many photos gripe, moan, and complain about 100 different things. As I have said before, I will be the man at the crossing that most likely will not move out of your shot. I want to be as close as legally and comfortably possible to these trains when they come rolling thru. I want to smell the oil & steam as it wisps in the air. I want to feel the surge of power as an engine barrels down the line, wheels flying, rods pounding, and whistle screaming.

You guys can't duplicate O. Winston Link. Enjoy the thrill...that's what is about.

Go ahead, Brett. Tell this guy above (IC382) he has to move back a safe distance from the track at a public crossing (behind the gates, for sure), to "enjoy" all that smell and sound up close while it's sitting still at a publicly accessible servicing location (such as on the platform of the excursion railway), that he's setting a bad example for the kids trying to get YouTube videos with the train passing six inches from the camera, that he has to set a good example for the others around him, etc.

Because this guy in the post above has professed to be your target audience. And he's already come right out and said he's not going to listen to you.

Good luck.

Moderators, take notice!

Hi everyone, its been awhile since I have been here but I just came back to the forum and this topic has caught my intreset but I was surprised to see that from the start of this topic is all about railfan or not a railfan stuff and nothing to do with The new NS 21st Centrey Steam Program. I agree with user IC382 for trying to fix the topic here, lets focus on the New Steam Program please and not this utier off topic nonsenes.

I for one am pleased to see Southern Railway #630 and #4501 back in steam. Im sure Robert Claytor if he was still alive would had been alittle bit proud to see NS finally getting somewhat of a steam program back on. Hopefully that one day in the future that if this steam program is succesfull, we might see N&W #611 come back first and maybe even further down the road we will also possibly see N&W #1218 return as well. I wish the crews and people of the new steam program well because I was only 2 years old when the Old Steam program of the NS Railway ended in 1994 and I never got the chance to see any of the engines that were ever part of that program in steam and now I have a chance to experiance what I missed out after 1994

Seconded. Switching back to the original thread topic for a moment, is there any official timeline of the life of this new program? I was paging through the latest Trains today during my break, and noticed a little blurb stating that 4501 and 630 will be rolling over the system over "the next four years." Just out of pure curiosity, has NS stated anywhere else (press release I may have missed?) a timeline for this program? Regards.

CanPac2317 from what I have learned so far, I have heard nothing saying about a timeline on how long this new excursion program will last, lets just hope it never will have a time line on how long it will last and hopefully this time this new steam program is here to stay