Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer but I have been involved in a similar situation with the Minnesota Transportation Museum back in the late 1990s.

Be careful there. Is the equipment truly abandoned? In other words, do we know who the previous owner(s) were/are? If we do, then legally no one can touch the equipment unless the current owner transfers ownership to whomever, or proper legal procedures are followed. In the MTM case, the situation involved locomotives and rolling stock not owned by MTM but stored with MTM rolling stock on a federal government installation. MTM knew who the owner was but the owner refused to deal with the issue of removing the locos and cars off the property. Since MTM was the "stuckee" in this mess (the installation commander didn't care who owned the equipment in question, he just wanted it off the property), we had to advertise for a Sheriff's sale to legally claim ownership so MTM could dispose of the rolling stock and locos. It wasn't too terribly complicated in Minnesota--not sure in New York.

The point may be moot at CPR might just swoop in and scrap the items, after consulting with the legal department of course.

Thanks!

Rapid Stream

Jim, I think I recall a discussion in which the actual abandonment was confirmed. There is no entity claiming owning the "has beens", the switch has been yanked, and the CPR is going to either cut them up themselves, or call in a contractor to do so. The point being, the units are CPR's to do with as they please.
Your counsel regarding jumping to conclusions is well taken.

Rapid Stream was still in 6 DBR-Lounge configuration. Work was started on it to perform a 40-year Amtrak truck rebuild. I recall that the contractor gave an estimate for the work, got the car off the trucks and had the trucks apart and then informed the owners (NRHS M&H Chapter) that more money was needed. The car sat (still is?) on shop trucks, and among other indignities, has had the interior shot up with a heavy-caliber handgun.

Some of the equipment (D&H RS-3 and Alco switcher, possibly the D&H wood boxcar and flanger) was privately owned by person(s) affiliated with M&H Chapter.

The saga of the M&H Chapter is a sad story; this is denounment of it. Hopefully, the NYC electrics will survive and find a safe home.

Howard P.

There was a classified ad here on RYPN awhile back that reads:

The ALCO Historical & Technical Society is offering former Delaware & Hudson, 1939 ACF built "Worlds Fair" coach #203 for DONATION or TRADE for ALCO related item. Car is currently land locked. Details: Good wheels and trucks, interior disasembled and incomplete, crash-posts need repair. Car has be in unprotected, out-door storage for 20 years, but is not as bad as it loo[i]ks. It is the last of its kind in existance and needs a good home. NO SCRAPPERS! The car needs to move in the coming future and does not fall in the criteria of our ALCO Heritage Museum. Please PM me for further info. Serious intrest only![/i]

This is clearly the car at Colonie.

I actually think this *could* end well . . . read on-

This equipment has been the subject of several RYPN threads dating back to the early years of this forum. A few simple searches revealed the following links:

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23733&p=104013&hilit=417#p104013

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20874&hilit=colonie

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20874&hilit=colonie

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8404&p=39385&hilit=colonie#p39385

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18079&p=76862&hilit=colonie#p76862

Reading across these threads reveals that there was stated interest in "saving" some of this equipment. However, there were some structural road blocks: Inability to gain access to the CP main, unclear ownership of the equipment, and reluctance of those owners to part with that equipment. With that perspective, CP's action has removed these barriers. They are clearly eager to have this equipment off their property and they seem to taken possession of what could reasonably deemed to be "abandoned property."

The question is, what step should be taken next? The closest analog I can see is the rescue of equipment from the Lake Shore Electric Railway. One person (in this case, Bill Wall) did the leg work among multiple museums to coordinate the acquisition and to facilitate the disposition of the equipment.

http://www.shore-line.org/trolleyville_update2.html#

If there is a chance to save this equipment (or to save parts) I think a coordinator would be indispensable. Donating this equipment would give the CP a nice write-off and good PR - and they have a strong record in preserving historic equipment. However, their good will would quickly wear thin if various employees (from yardmasters on up) are barraged with the same questions (what is there?, can I have it?, can it move on its own wheels?, etc.) Likewise, a coordinator could help museums make decisions where they might otherwise might hold off offending a neighboring organization. Who could be a coordinator? Someone who has good communication skills, knows many of the regional preservation organizations, and who has the ability to commit up to 300 hours to commit over the next 4 to 6 months.

As I stated, I think this *could* end well - the odds are against that -- but is it worth making a viable attempt? The RYPN interchange provides a tool that could be used to coordinate who the coordinator would be.

Ok. For the record, not all of the equipment is "abandonded". The ALCO Historical & Technical Society owns three pieces there and we have been trying hard to remove items. Things are looking good for moving the ex. B&M/D&H RS3. Funds are still needed, but we are more than half way there. We have been trying to dispose of the other two items with little luck. We have offered our 1939 D&H "Worlds Fair" coach free to a responsible home with no serious offers. I do not want to see this car cut up as it is the last of it's kind, one of only six built in it's class. No one seems to care though. We have also had no luck simply scrapping our ex. NYC baggage car. Asbestos concerns have held up this project which is unfortunate as the monies could be used to help push us over the top towards moving the RS3. It's trucks are also in really good condition and could be usefull in someone's passenger car restoration.

As for the other equipment:
The ex. Long Island S1 (417) is inoperable (cracked block) and privatly owned. The owner has expressed interest to me in not seeing it cut up, but has not made any attempts to move it yet.

The "Rapid Stream" is basicly abandonded. The former owner's estate can no longer be reached concerning the car. It is worth very little other than a few parts and scrap. No trucks and gutted by fire. Twice. Wouldn't mind having the letterboards though.

The two Albany Port loco's ownership has been in dispute for years. The S2 has many good parts in it and is historicaly significant in that it is one of only two D&H S2s D&H switchers left in existance (the other being Buffalo Southern 100). The RS3 (D&H 4126) could be a runner again. Only copper thieves have made this a difficult option. A good ALCO road (DL?) could have her up and running again in short order.

The B&M RS3, NYC 9100 series baggage, and D&H coach (203) have already been mentioned.

The double shethed D&H box car, steel frame-wood sideed D&H caboose and ex. Otter Valley-D&H-Boston & Albany commuter coach are privatly owned by a notorious, Albany area "preservationist" who has done nothing but harm for local preservation due to greed and an inflated ego. The coach has been recently listed for sale but I fear the worst for these pieces as he does not have a sense of reality in regards to real "value". The wood cars are very rough, but not beyond salavge yet.

The NYC electrics, NYC RS3, NYC U25B, D&H baggage car, hevyweight Pullman club car "John Hancock" and two ex. D&H-Rio Grande diners are stored at a different site (Glenmont) and are a seperate discussion all together.

In regards to all of this, the time for action was a decade ago. We can hardly be suprised by the upcoming events. We (AHTS) are late players to the game and will be lucky to rescue one piece from the lot. Many with the power to change the outcome of this have sat by and done nothing for years. I for one cannot blame CP for wanting to clean up their property. I will still shed a tear when the day finally comes as all of this stuff was consided "preserved" at one piont. This is truly an example of how not to handle historical artifacts.

Matt Giardino
President, ALCO Historical & Technical Society

Matt,

Has CP contacted you about the group's equipment? Do you have a deadline to move it?

In terms whether something constitutes abandoned property (in any circumstance), I look at these being some of the key attributes:

Is an attempt being made to secure the property from unwanted access?
Is an attempt being made to maintain the property against the elements?

If it's on someone else's property:

Is rent being paid?
Is there an agreement that otherwise states the terms that the property can have occupancy?

Answers in the affirmative to the aforementioned questions would point to the property being abandoned.

I don't have extensive knowledge of the situation at Colonie or of New York State property law. However, if CP is willing to talk on the record to the press (something that a railroad would only do after they complete other planning efforts), I think its reasonable to assume that they consider the equipment abandoned on their property. Unless a credible and bona fide effort is made to CP to dispose of the equipment to museums, it will be disposed of by a scrapper.

If you have a ownership claim to some of this equipment and wish to preserve that, I think it would be a reasonable suggestion to immediately discuss the situation with counsel enrolled in the New York State Bar.

CP has a new CEO who believes in operating a fluid railroad. He is known for removing those management employees who do not follow the program.

Accordingly, the upgrade at Colonie may be part and parcel of this philosophy...or, CP may be polishing up the property (D&H) for sale.

In any event, it is hard to be sanguine about the fate of this equipment.

DPK

We (AHTS) have been in constant talk with Canadian Pacific. We heve even tried to help them track down the other owners. To my knowladge, we were not given a date to get our stuff out by. This is possibly because we are actively trying to deal with it and the railroad is aware of this. I do not have all the info though as one of our board members has been working on the situation and has not presented any further information. Hopefully we will have the locomotive out and the other items disposed of before it becomes an issue for CP.

Matt G.

I think Mr. Cornielle has hit the nail on the head. Whether any preservation agency has been involved one way or the other, nothing has been done within a reasonable period of time other than to rescue an FA unit. Since somebody moved on that locomotive, there is a precedent to show motivation and capability that is no longer present. Requesting an extension to remove the B&M unit and the D&H coach may be the best you get. Getting somebody down there to stencil "No Scrap" on the pieces should be done as soon as an "okay" is secured (if it's secured), otherwise you can kiss them goodbye.

Been, there, done that--literally.

And I can tell you from personal experience that you can have the top management, the regional managers, and the division managers on board with your proposals, and that can STILL fail to "trickle down" to the guys with their boots on the ballast. They may have orders to "clean up," and they don't see any paperwork or text messages from superiors saying "leave the one locomotive alone...."

A "DO NOT SCRAP" stencil or spray paint is somewhat irrelevant in this case. You need a spray stencil and/or waterproof signs that not only say who to call/contact with regards to responsibility, but who to call with regards to authorization from the railroad. The "DO NOT SCRAP" stencil only tells them which car(s) to leave alone when they come in to scrap the rest of the cars on the siding, and if a bunch of idiots paint "DNS" on all the cars just because they don't want to see them scrapped, well, they'll ignore them all.

Bluntly put, unlike an automobile with a national VIN database protocol, you cannot prove ownership of a locomotive or passenger car. The MVA or DMV doesn't issue locomotive titles. What you must do instead is ASSERT OWNERSHIP. And doing so can land a huge stack of potential liabilities on you--past storage rent, move it in 24 hours or else, clean up the lead paint/oil/asbestos, etc. At that point, all you have going for you is any goodwill granted to you by (in this case) CP/D&H, or the amount of faith they can put in your promises based on any track record you may have or how hard you appear to be working on the matter.

I believe you actually mean "answers to the negative".

Previous posts on this topic on other boards have stated that "Rapid Stream" is still on shop trucks. My research also indicates that it's an ex-Amtrak car so the New York Central name boards may *not* be original either. Of course Amtrak was famous for removing the boards, flipping them around and re-attaching them, so who knows...