So what are the economics of this? What would have been the probability of selling the car for a higher price than what it yielded in scrapping?

It seems likely that what they did made sense to them based on what they knew which didn't include knowing what they didn't know. Had an interesting conversation with somebody else in the business yesterday....included deals that died of ignorance. Point being that people who don't know what can be done or what things really cost if you know how to do them are at the mercy of those they ask for advice who may have never actually done the thing it the first place and have no better idea. Ask a local inexperienced rigger and mover how much they would charge to move a railroad car from point A to point B.........or ask a non railroad historian about the importance of an artifact that is a maintenance and legal liability that doesn't fit into their collection and what resources they know about in terms of its disposal. Unless you are in their sphere of influence as a qualified railroaod stuff expert with real expert connections.......you aren't even on their radar. It is easy to take the advice of the scrapper down the street after the local rigger says he couldn't lift it for less than 50K. They know nothing better to believe, and nobody better qualified to ask.

If you want something that somebody else isn't using or caring for.....talk to them about it frequently so you are their obvious go-to guy. Otherwise don't be surpprised when you aren't invited to solve their problem for them. It always helps to have the resources and contacts ready to jump when you have the chance....nobody will indefinitely put off disposing of a problem for a few years while you hold bake sales to find money to move it.

Be proactive or accept the consequences of not doing so silently.

dave

It sounds like they made their decision based on the erroneous price they got to move it. And it is possible they told any interested parties that same price they were using and that scared off any suitors. Yes it is sad to see such a nice example go to scrap, but we are not in their shoes.

Later!
Mr. Ed

I am just wondering what they were likely to have received for offering the car for scrap. I am also wondering what they might have received for the sale of the car to the preservation market.

I know that both of these values are quite variable, but I just wonder if the average value for selling to the preservation market is lower than the scrap value they received.

You have to know how to find the "preservation market". Scrappers are in the yellow pages.

dave

Well is there somebody here who knows the preservation market that can answer my question?

I'll go out on a limb and say that they had to pay to get it cut up. 40 to 50 tons of scrap with 5 to 10 tons of garbage (seats, plywood, insulation, batteries, non-ferrous metal) in it? On the other hand, and assuming no major unseen defect I'd guess anywhere from $0 to $15,000 for a reasonably complete pre-war Budd coach on dead track. I'd say Top-fuel probably nailed it pretty close on the cost to move it, and there are some good options in that area to get one moved and it may not require the crane.

ETA

ETA,

It sounds like selling outright might have been the most lucrative option. I can see your point about not getting much return, if any, from the scrapping. Transportation, equipment time, and sorting the metal from the trash would surely have taken a big bite out of the scrap value. I think it is possible that people owning historical railroad equipment might not know how to sell it. It would be easy to listen to some generalized advice from friends and become convinced that selling would either be impossible or yield no significant return.

Yes, and that happens.

And "scaring off suitors" is not the issue, since any credible suitor would know damn well what it costs to move a car. The problem is, because the seller's "mind is set" on a wildly inflated cost of movement, he rejects all credible suitors as being unrealistic on movement cost. He doesn't want to be left with the mess and delay when a move fails.

Buyer: Hi, I'd like to buy your unit.
Seller: *laugh* I've had 100 ignorant railfans call and say the same thing. I want a realistic offer.
Buyer: I'm a legit buyer. $18,000.
Seller: You have my attention... but what do you expect movement to cost you?
Buyer: This will be my fifth move. Comparable moves have cost me $9000.
Seller: Nice try there, space cadet. The people *I* trust tell me it'll cost $60,000 to move.

And that's where the negotiaton ends.

Same thing has happened to me, when I've moved locomotives and cars for not a lot of money, and I've been told that I am nuts. Well I just whip out the invoices and the photographs of the moves. For example, $5,235 to move a GE 70 tonner across town in three loads, INCLUDING the crane to load and unload.

A passenger car has the ability to be moved as its own trailer, so with a rigger who isn't afraid to do things differently and some decent roads to travel over, moving such a car shouldn't break the bank.

The lunatics at the Northern Ohio Rwy. Museum do that one better, they hire a tow truck company for their Rapid Transit car moves. Ohio doesn't require permits for a load on the hook.

I for one am tired of reading this over and over again. The same old story, a piece of RR history is going to be scrapped unless it can be moved as a group doesn't want it on that land anymore. Then, people scramble to find someone to buy/move it (it's always 'someone else' of course). So many people decry that someone saves the equipment, but it's never the person saying that it should be saved who's going to do the work to save it. And why? "Hey, I don't have the money to move this, but someone should save it!"
The original owner, who was never into RR stuff, gets tired of well-meaning train buffs yelling how someone should save it but nobody has the money to move it. So, they scrap it because they're tired of people with no means yelling at how someone should come along and preserve it (seeing a trend yet?)
And of course, then people write on forums like this that the original owner didn't look hard enough for that magical someone with deep pockets (who is never named, oddly) who 'could have moved it easily,' yet never does...
I say, if you're not that someone, or know who he is, then put up or shut up. You cann't expect a property owner to hold onto a piece of RR stuff forever while you decry how someone should save it with no way to actually do that!

Couldn't have said it better! But if there are folks out there with deep pockets and a crew just sitting around waiting for the call to go and rescue yet another piece of history, let them post their info here and on other RR preservation threads so this kind of incident never happens again.

Later!
Mr. Ed

you need a spot to shout it out, here it is...again...
(and too late again)

I think Lee's scenario applies more often than not, but in this case the owner was a historical society operating a museum ostensibly concerned with telling a railroad-related story. I think that group's apparent lack of sensitivity magnifies the tragedy for many posters here. Even if the car didn't directly relate to the story of Kate Shelley we might have hoped that someone within the leadership of the organization would have recognized that the car had historical value by itself.

Of course there's no guarantee that anyone within the organization has any sort of railroading background or formal museum or preservation training. Furthermore, if we assume for the sake of argument that the average age of its members is, say between 70 and 80, it's likely that they have memories of pre- Amtrak times when such cars were quite commonplace and one fluted stainless- steel passenger car looked pretty much like another.