A lot of the people I have seen sharing the "Save the Cass" page and shouting doom and gloom on Facebook have been in the 12-16 year old range. In fact a lot of the people posting about steam on Facebook seem to be in this same age range. I wonder if the odd language is simply because of age and lack of writing skills that tends to be common at said age?

Maybe I screwed up here.......

I realize that some of our members here at RYPN do not partake in Facebook, so I figured the easiest way was to copy and paste the entire post.

Personally I believe this is nothing more than a over reaction by someone but I figured I had ask around... That's all I meant to do by starting this thread. I apologize for the confusion.

For the record.... I'm not Mr. Newhouse....

Tim W.

Might this, in part, have something to do with the planned "loop" of rail operations in the area that has been talked about for several years now?

...in which case, putting the operations authority under one umbrella might help with federal/state funding to build/rebuild row that is needed to complete this loop?

I can't see diesels running up to Bald Knob, so I doubt its truly in danger of major changes.

Greetings all,

My name is Matt Wilson and I am the editor of "The Log Train", the quarterly journal of the Mountain State Railroad & Logging Historical Association, Cass Scenic Railroad's non-profit organization of record. I am also one of the founding moderators for the Casshews page and am solely responsible for devising the "Casshews" name itself (some think its clever, some think its nutty :D ). I wrote the introduction that the original poster cut and pasted to begin this thread. What follows are my own thoughts and comments as an individual, and NONE of it should be interpreted as being the opinion of the organization I normally represent nor Cass Scenic Railroad (so be prepared for me to be a little more "sharp tongued" in this post than you would see me be in my "official" capacity. Trust me, you deserve everything that's coming, though ;) ).

Before I jump into addressing the task at hand of why we are REALLY here, I'm going to address some of the attacks on my use of the English language. I have always been overly verbose, and can write almost anyone under the table with semi-witty jargon and figures of speech that many find to be similar to old English. Ironically, it was these qualities and the ability to generate large amounts of content in a relatively short amount of time that caught the eye of some of the MSR&LHA exalted heads (how do you like that for an odd reference from abroad?!), and why I was chosen by retired editor of "The Log Train", Richard Sparks, to be his only choice as successor. I admit sometimes I get carried away with it and am only human so occasionally make mistakes (especially on Facebook and elsewhere online since I don't necessarily take the time to proofread everything), but I assure you that while the English and grammar I used isn't always the most common usage in the 21st century, it is still correct and proper, although occasionally not for consumption of the mildly intelligent (I admit I sometimes forget to "dumb it down" for the lesser educated individuals in the audience). For those who questioned my background: I have lived in West Virginia all of my life, attended public school (where I never scored outside of the 90th percentile in English sections of standardized testing), am a U.S. citizen born to lifelong U.S. citizens, and with the exception of a visit to Canada a decade ago, I have never been outside the country. I just turned 30 a month ago. I also wear shoes, have all of my teeth (with the exception of one wisdom tooth), and I do NOT have a moonshine still in my backyard. Now that I believe I have covered all of the moronic comments and rude remarks that have been made on this page, I'm going to give you all something I DON'T feel you really deserve: An explanation of the "Save the Cass Scenic Railroad" topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I do have some insight into things that others outside of the Cass bubble might not, so I'm going to try and iron out some of the misinterpretation here (or at least I will iron it out for those who care to actually read this post and not just see what they want to see). At the end of the day, though, fact is fact, opinion is opinion, and rumor is rumor.

Now, as per my VERY reliable sources (read: actual people who are involved and not news media articles or sources) which are to remain anonymous at this time, the FACT is, the powers that be who govern Cass and the state park system ARE going to be making a decision in the next few weeks on whether or not to continue operating Cass Scenic Railroad as a state park attraction or whether it should become its own privatized attraction. If such a change should occur, trackage ownership would revert to another WV state agency, the West Virginia State Rail Authority, which also owns ALL of the other tracks for the other tourist operations in West Virginia, inclusive of the West Virginia Central between Tygart Junction and Webster Springs (home to the Tygart Flyer and Cheat Mountain Salamander excursions) and also the South Branch Valley between Green Spring and Petersburg (home to the Potomac Eagle). I personally attended a board meeting of our organization a few weeks ago, and was expressly asked not to question park officials who were present about this topic (this should serve as some indirect proof in itself: if this were NOT true, why would they care if we asked them about it or not? The officials would just tell us it’s a false rumor and that would be that.).

James, the writer of the main source for my post on Casshews, is in direct contact with the sources of his statement. I am familiar with them as well, and am confident that, because of their direct affiliation with the park, they know what they are talking about and aren't just making it up. Why would they make this up? At least one U.S. Senator and more than one delegate are aware of this issue and have made their opinions known to others who will ultimately be making the decision. Now, what I have said up to this point is all FACT.

A look at the speculation part of it (aka "doom and gloom"): James applied some very well educated logic based on what he knows about Cass and its mechanical operations and made his "predictions" of the possible outcome based on this. And while this, too, is an opinion, I think it should go without argument that the best thing for Cass is to have it continue to be run by those who have worked with it for many years and are familiar with all of the intricacies involved with maintaining steam locomotives and antique equipment (the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here). Is there really anyone here who thinks Cass would be better taken care of in the hands of unpaid volunteers who may have the spirit and desire to help, but lack the knowledge and expertise (I myself would be one such volunteer, but admit you wouldn't want me to be caught anywhere near a throttle!)?. Steam locomotive operation and maintenance is a very sensitive art. In fact, it is really a dying art, and has been for decades. It isn't possible to just post a "help wanted" ad in the local newspaper and expect 8 or 10 candidates to apply with enough qualifications that they could just hop on a locomotive and start operating it safely with minimal training. It takes a great deal of training and experience to really grasp steam locomotive operation.

To address my personal thoughts: I DO believe this all does go hand in hand with the 90 mile loop proposal, and thusly, it seems logical--at least to some degree--that John Smith and his Durbin & Greenbrier Valley operation would be the "natural" candidate to take over operations at Cass if this takeover should take place. BUT…are they really the best candidate for this particular operation? While I give kudos to Smith and company for all that they have contributed to WV railroad tourism, I also want to point out that overall, as a company, they are fairly inexperienced in the steam locomotive operation and maintenance department. As of now, they have NO operational steam locomotives (NEWSFLASH: Climax #3 has received some severe damage to its boiler and is no longer operational; a diesel will likely takeover the Durbin Rocket operation beginning this season), and of the crew that do know how to work with it, they are not anywhere near being up to the challenge of taking on the entire CSRR operation. They have one locomotive in their charge, and while they have done well (at least up until this year) at keeping it operational, there simply aren't enough of them to do what needs done to keep Cass running. If the takeover happens, most of the employees will either not be retained as employees, or otherwise have expressly stated that they will choose to leave on their own accord because they don't want to work for a private organization. And really, without them, CASS REALLY COULD DIE. Again, you can't just go out and interview and hire five or six steam locomotive engineers and as many fireman tomorrow. Those in this world who do know how to do it would have to be willing to move to a very remote area of West Virginia, which may be attractive to a few, but likely will scare away many.

It is also likely that, even IF everything else goes smoothly and they do find enough employees to make it work, we will likely only see one or two locomotives under steam at one time, which takes away from the aesthetic draw that Cass has for rail enthusiasts. I have also thought of the possibility that if D&GV get the job, they might even disburse the Cass fleet of locomotives throughout their system, not just keep all of them at Cass. A locomotive will likely be moved to Durbin to replace the Climax, and Big Six will likely move to Elkins and perform regular steam excursions based from there.

IF another company who has several employees capable and willing to take on the Cass operation were to bid and win the contract, then yes, there is a chance that it could possibly equal or even be better than it is now. But lets face it: what are the chances of that happening? I predict that, if this all happens, regardless of who gets the contract, we will see a reduced schedule of weekends only, with the exception of Fall Foliage season in October.

Lastly, to those who question why Mr. Newhouse made the comment that he would "delete all derogatory posts" at the end of his statement: THIS THREAD is the reason why he said that. He wasn't saying he would delete any opposing remarks, but rather useless, rude, and otherwise improper comments like those that have been made here. I am personally offended by most of your statements, and, outside of the original poster who was innocently trying to discuss a legitimate topic and the one or two of you who were actually discussing Cass, I certainly hope that most of you are NOT members of our organization. If you are, I am ashamed to say I am a part of the same group and am appalled by your behavior.

Once again, I reiterate that all comments made here are my own personal remarks, and do not reflect in any way the feelings of Mountain State Railroad & Logging Historical Association or Cass Scenic Railroad.

PLEASE NOTE: I once again didn't proofread this post, so no need to point out any grammatical errors I might have made in the forthcoming snide replies that I'm sure I'll be bombarded with.

Mr. Wilson,

The comments and questions posted in this thread do not, in any objective way whatsoever, rise to the level of "derogatory," "useless, rude," or otherwise "improper." If you believe so, your Internet exposure has obviously been VERY limited.

The fact remains that this FB Page, and posts like these, are the first that any serious observers of the situation have heard of this alleged threat. Absent publicized confirmation by independent media editors/reporters, politicians, and/or representatives of the railroad and/or government, skepticism is duly warranted. And if your reaction to quite legitimate inquiries as to the veracity of this report is really outrage, offense, and anger, then your group needs to find a media relations spokesperson with a thicker skin, and pronto.

Whether we like it or not, the fact that CSRR is a state property and operation with state employees means that, no matter what happens in this situation, politics will be involved or invoked, just as it is with state railroad museums, state-subsidized Amtrak trains, etc. Politics, as with similar matters of faith, gets contentious. Questions will be asked and allegations made, good and bad, based on reality, fantasy, and distorted viewpoints. There's almost never any pure "truth" in such matters save for raw data such as number of riders or tons of coal consumed. As far away from "civilization" as Cass may be, the fact that state employees work there mean it's not immune from such balderdash.

I do not yet harbor any opinion on this reported crisis, other than to say that the CSRR is a jewel of southeastern West Va.'s culture, heritage, and tourism industry, and it deserves to remain. And I, and others, can't formulate an opinion without hearing all the proposed alternatives. A public/private/volunteer partnership/alliance might be bad, but it might also be beneficial, especially to the taxpayers of an economically depressed state. We don't know, because we've heard but one side presented, with all the "doom and gloom" we routinely hear about each and every time government cutbacks are proposed, from a school or firehouse closure to military base realignment/closure and withdrawal from foreign countries. Those of us who routinely hear teachers' unions scream "think of the children!" and firefighters claim "People will die!" develop a jaded cynicism, with at least some good reason.

Lastly for now, please do NOT take questioning of the original "rumor" personally with such great offense, as you seem to be working overtime to do. There is almost nobody in rail preservation or online railfanning whose reports or opinions are beyond reproach, not even the editors of the major rail magazines whose incomes depend on neutrality and reliability.

Alexander,

It wasn't necessarily the inquiries about the subject matter that upset me or anyone's speculation as to what might happen or might not happen, but rather those who chose to analyze my English and those who implied that our post was all "hype" and was all made up.

I'll assume that everyone who posted here never figured that anyone who actually did know any of what is going on would ever see it or comment on it. I can understand they didn't realize the source was directly from people who are involved with Cass, and not just some uneducated bystander who has only been to Cass once in their life making frivolous speculation. I assure you this is very real, and has been going on for some time, but behind closed doors. I do have a thick skin and really I'm not angered and didn't even get "red-faced" about this at all. In fact, I'm laughing at how those with the least intelligence like to rip apart and rag on something simply because they don't understand what is being said and its "over their head."

Also, and again, this is just my opinion and nothing else, I don't really think this is entirely to do with the "economic depression". Cass is actually one of the biggest money makers in the entire state park system, but at the same time is also one of the biggest expenses (what a catch-22). Overall, WV has one of the best state park systems in the nation, and I believe is one of the only ones that does NOT charge a general admission just to set foot on park lands (only Stonewall Jackson Lake Resort State Park charges an entry fee, none of the other 50+ parks and forests do). They make their money entirely from lodging and use fees (swimming, boating, skiing, and yes, train tickets at Cass). I have traveled to many other states, and no one has anything on West Virginia as far as parks go. We have the best. Its just starting to catch up with us. I really do believe the reason for the change at Cass is entirely due to the loop project, as they are expected to announce within the next few weeks that it is, indeed, going to happen.

Really, outside of try and let our delegates know our feelings, there is nothing that any of us really can do anyway. Whats going to happen is going to happen.

The thing I find closest to an objective 'true threat to Cass Scenic Railroad' was this point:

> If the takeover happens, most of the employees will either not be retained as employees,
> or otherwise have expressly stated that they will choose to leave on their own accord
> because they don't want to work for a private organization.

Why, exactly, would any 'privatizing' organization (Smith's or any other) not retain the existing Cass employees if they are so short of people trained in the art of steam maintenance. And, perhaps more significantly, what are the grounds for saying ex cathedra they will leave Cass rather than work for any private organization.

Particularly because I happen to agree, adding a bit to the author's emphasis, that WITHOUT THEM CASS REALLY COULD DIE. Just a change of ownership would make them cease to care? Is there no way that a State decision to 'privatize' might also include language requiring conditions on the new operator -- like retaining all personnel who are dedicated enough to stay, or giving special consideration to the steam experts? If privatization is as much of a looming 'done deal' as the FB post implies, I wonder if it would be better to concentrate on ensuring full viability of the Cass operations going forward rather than taking an adversarial tone.

I don't know how West Virginian politicians are about folks from other states commenting on their business, but I will happily (and, I think, eloquently) write to them all concerning the vital importance of keeping the existing Cass organization intact, and its people satisfied, and its steam operations safe and prospering as one of the results. This in spite of the fact that my interests in steam lie far from conventional geared locomotives. I hope there are others on RyPN who will back me up to whatever extent we can make a positive difference here.

Since it seems we no longer deserve updates on the Save the Cass Railroad Facebook information, here is their list of contact information: pass it along as appropriate, and take whatever action you think will be beneficial.

The official page for Save the Cass Railroad is at https://www.facebook.com/SavetheCSRR

OK, I think there's actually something to take issue with in this argument......

I will not contest the value of the expertise in maintaining steam locomotives and safely operating them on a punishing piece of mountain railroad. I had the honor of doing so on a smaller scale for several years, and it was the most learning, fastest learning, and the most interesting learning I have ever enjoyed. Turns out that like old Nimrod Bell, I'm not much good for anything else, although circumstances have led me into other things for a while. I think your qualified shops and ops staff are assets that will not be easily replaced, or without a costly penalty paid in the process. What I'm not convinced about is that there's a move to do so behind the idea of a change in management, it seems to be a more emotional than fact based reaction.

Volunteers are a sword with many more than two edges. For an operation dependent on a constant level of operational reliability, and an intensive schedule, probably volunteers can to some extent relieve the paid skilled staff of some less skilled tasks, but not keep the line running. Any management proposal not recognising this reality is in my view too based on ignorance to be considered as a qualified candidate for running the operation.

However, the biggest issue I have with your statement is the nontechnical other than shops and ops parts of the management of the park that could certainly use improvement. A vendor of specialized mechanical services I have worked with delivered a job to Cass, and it took over a year to be compensated for his work. This is not acceptable for a small business in a niche market. The political and structural interference in the marketing and products being offered to the public could also be improved by being more open to a more market based approach. So, I think by concerning yourself with only the technical parts of the operation and viewing any change as a potential disaster, I'd be also looking at the potential overall improvements that could make Cass a better place that does more business and makes many people more happy to have experienced it. Private sector does better than public sector in experimentation and thinking out of the box......and is less dependent of political rather than financial conditions to cross lines and build strategic partnerships that benefit more widely and deeply.

The challenge is to balance the parts of the park that are public good with the parts of the park that are a productive business........and it could certainly be a private entrepreneurial nonprofit which would be even more beneficial since it would be free to work to benefit all stakeholders rather than just shareowners, technical personnel included.

So, please reconsider and view the situation from the forest perspective rather than concentrating on a few trees. It's not just a railroad or just people who run and fix trains. I'm much more interested in the whole bigger picture, so why don't you find out about it and tell us all more.

dave

Hey, I'm one of the biggest "grammar Nazis" you'll ever find, trained in dialects and linguistics, and even *I* didn't "go there." I learned back in my parents' newspaper office that ineffective communications does not necessarily equal ignorance. We had a racing columnist that could spell the same word three different ways in the same paragraph, but he was a much a "walking encyclopedia" as, say, the Brothers Moedinger, Conrad, Anderson, Pincus, etc. are.

However, I do tell folks that my writing courses in college spent two years teaching folks how to write creatively and descriptively, and then the next two years teaching those of us that stuck with it what to not write and when to cut out the verbosity, and why. The critics of your writing had some valid points, unfortunately, and their validity is highlighted simply by the Internet, which is crammed full of exactly those writing issues. Readers of knowledge and consequence will judge you, rightly or wrongly, on your communications skills, and astute, trained thinkers will go even further by analyzing what isn't said and/or how dissenting viewpoints are handled. (Foghorn Leghorn loudly and verbosely talking over a skeptic may make himself heard, but he'll still leave the wrong impression.)


Absolutely not. Those of us that are more serious and knowledgeable about such matters wanted real answers, not mysterious anonymous allegations, and the only way we're going to get them is to ASK. If nobody of any consequence actually answered, then that, too, would provide at least grounds for concluding that the entire episode is/was misinformed speculation. Sometimes the only way to incite a response, unfortunately, is to tick someone off.

But even within well-run organizations there are "mavericks" that cause trouble with publicly-made proclamations of various sorts. I have personally witnessed projects delayed or even scrubbed because of some underinformed underling's "big mouth," and have seen, secondhand and firsthand, collections or resources diverted from one operation to another because of imbecility. Many of us may know about one "Friends of the XY&Z RR Museum" that allegedly set back their cause perhaps a decade because of problems between the "museum" and "friends" due to "rogue" behavior on the part of certain spokespersons.


I must say that this was a large part of my initial skepticism. The only thing I could think of is the possibility that these employees are so vested in a (very, maybe overly?) generous state employee pension/benefits program, one that is unlikely to be matched by even a large company. Lest this be chalked up to uninformed speculation, I will say that I have seen 1) people in other rural, depressed areas turn down private employment in favor of lesser-paying county/state jobs with enormous benefits (and apparently less responsibility or oversight, in one case), and 2) relocated railroad employees drive enormous distances to retain a token, once-a-month job at a short line or paid tourist railroad position just to stay in the Railroad Retirement system.

These are not State Senators and politicians, but instead, FEDERAL Congress people. I don't see any of the individual STATE legislators, especially from Cass' district, listed.

This question is easy to answer:

When a govt. function is privatized the govt. employees involved may prefer to work for that govt. body somewhere else so they can retain certain benefits such as health insurance, vacation time and pensions.

Bob H

I take vehement exception to a couple of statements made above.

#1, Steam locomotive operation and maintenance is NOT a dead or dieing art. This statement has been thrown around (largely by people who should know better) since the mid-1960's. If anything, this craft or "art" is flourishing, as can by seen by the number of locomotives operating now compared to, say, 30 years ago, The number of restorations and heavy repairs being done, and by the number of companies and individuals who make their living doing this kind of work. There is a new generation in the pipeline now, in fact.

If you need further proof, visit the Strasburg, D&SNG, C&TS, MRSR, and dozens of others.

Work scopes are being successfully undertaken today that would have not even been attempted in the previous 50 years or more, including the design and construction of entirely new locomotives and boilers.

2. Second, I have it on authority at least as good as yours, if not better, that the D&GV Climax is undergoing boiler repairs right now and should be back under steam in a few weeks. Whether the boiler issue was damage or deterioration or some of each is open to debate, but the important point is that the locomotive is being made ready to steam again and sky isn't falling.

I think the original posters thought that giving the interactive link to the West Virginia Legislature's Web site would provide links to everything. The only detail that isn't there is the correct State district. For Pocahontas County, the Senate district is 11 and the House district 43

Senate representatives are Clark Barnes (the minority whip) and Gregory Tucker. House representatives are William G (Bill) Hartman and Denise Campbell. I do not know which committees and committee members are the most appropriate to contact, but it is easy to find their information.

Easiest way to find contact information is to go to:

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/senate1/ro ... order=desc [this is the Senate page]

and choose House and Senate activities from the gold pulldown menus in the title bar. This will also get you into the interactive committees listing, which is I think an area where proactive efforts might be directed.

Meanwhile, the Pocahontas County seat is Marlinton, and the county has a Web presence:

http://www.pocahontascounty.wv.gov/link ... fault.aspx

(I suspect there is some interest in some of the Boards and Commissions)

Agreed that the state employees of the CSRR would probably very much want to continue in their government pension programs. I haven't been to Cass in the last 15 years, but from what I have read, many of the people who were there then are still there, which means many of them are approaching retirement age, or have well over 20 years in the system. Second, while working for the state park system may be considered a very desirable job for someone who is a native of Pocahontas County, from what I was able to learn about being an employee of the railroad, anyone who has held a similar machinist, mechanic, or operating railroad job in a major metropolitan area would find going there to work more than a little bit of a culture shock. My understanding was that they are not exactly making a killing on their "government jobs". Few with other options would voluntarily move there to work and live. It is very isolated. After all, there is a good reason the federal government put a major radio telescope observatory in the area. Another factor is that the highly skilled people in the shop are not only operating people during the season, they are also the mechanical people in the off season. Losing even half of them at once would be a serious blow to the overall operation. Operating a standard gauge railroad on ~10% grades with steam is no joke.