NYDOT Seeks Input on Remsen-Lake Placid Rail Corridor

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:45 pm

News story from the Utica Observer Dispatch, which has also gone out over the wires:

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20141028 ... 4/0/SEARCH

And commentary on the second hearing in Old Forge, on both the Snow and Green pages of ARTA:

Quote:

The Adirondack Rail Trail
Thanks to all you trail fans who made it to Old Forge for more hearings. It was great to see more trail folks than rail this time around. Our take is that the DOT is doing whatever it can to make sure that the train stays from Old Forge to Tupper. Instead of a neutral factual presentation to the public it was a loaded pro rail presentation listing all the hurdles that might have to be jumped and no benefits. We will be refuting many of these so called "facts" with documented facts of our own. Make sure you get to one of the next hearings in Tupper Lake or Lake Placid next week.

And other commentary by Hope Frenette and others:

Quote:

Hope Frenette
8 hrs · Edited
Headed to OF today. Let's gear up Tupper Lake because my understanding is that the DOT presentation at the hearing is very pro rail and absolutely biased when it should be open to all opinions. Not Cool. Tupper is next week. Plan on it.
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5 people like this.

James HoughtaIing Take a video camera and tripod please.
6 hrs · Like

Hope Frenette Sorry James. We will post a link to the presentation as soon as we can find it. We were told that it was available on the DOT and DEC website but I have not seen anything yet.

Personal take on this--In my opinion the DOT has correct numbers in terms of costs of restoration vs. conversion. I base this on research I did to find out how much roads cost. I find it strange that the ARTA people would make claims of bias on this angle.

About passenger ridership vs. trail use, I have to admit to not being able to have an opinion; the rail ridership does look high, though not impossible, and I think the same might be true for the trail. However, two other important considerations should be taken into account:

1. What's the demographic of the trail users? How many of them will be local, vs. how many will be coming in from outside? I can't vouch for bicycle or hiker numbers, but I can tell you there won't be any growth in the snowmobile bunch, not with the serious decline in registrations and the virtual collapse of snowmobile sales in the last 16 years.

2. What's the future going to be like in terms of oil supply and price? Sure, oil and gasoline prices are down now, but how long can we realistically expect that to last? How long before the price goes back up, way up, to where we do have to conserve as much as we can, and we need trains because we won't be able to drive to the extent we do now?

These two also play into the relative costs of rail restoration vs. trail conversion.

I think this is definitely time to wait and see, too many things going on that you don't want to close out the rail option.

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1087

A few key details from the Utica Observer-Dispatch newspaper article Public hearings begin for rail corridor use in North Country:

Quote:

[NY State Department of Environmental Conservation ]Director of Lands and Forests Rob Davies and [NY State Department of Transportation] Freight and Passenger Rail Bureau Director Ray Hessinger said the costs of maintaining a rail or a trail would be almost identical, but that rehabilitating a track for 40 mph trains would cost less than creating a 10- to 12-foot-wide trail.

I am not surprised that rehabiltating the track would cost less than building a trail; contemporary MoW equipment is incredibly efficient.

Quote:

Using similar trails and railroads as comparisons, the DOT and DEC believe an Adirondack rail trail could attract about 70,000 annual users, while the scenic railroad could see about 200,000 riders per year if expanded.

That 200,000 riders per year estimate strikes me as low. The D&SNG attracts 140,000 riders a year and it is in a town of 17,000 people that is 3 and 1/2 hours from the nearest interstate highway. In comparison, the Adirondack Scenic's south end is 2 miles from the Utica exit of Interstate-90, while the Lake Placid end is 35 miles from Interstate-87.... and it is in a state with 19+ million population!

Quote:

Davies said the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act would make it illegal to lay tracks back down on the southern end of the corridor if they were taken up and not replaced in one year

crij · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am **Posts:** 585

NYDOT posted the Power point presentation

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forest ... 014shw.pdf

Rich c.

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

Current discussion on an Adirondack Almanack article written by Phil Brown:

Would Rail Trail Cost Taxpayers $20M Or Nothing?

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2014/ ... nt-1144122

Iron Horse Railway Preservation contends they can do the demo and trail construction for free, using salvaged materials to pay workers, P&O, and trail construction.

The Remsen-Lake Placid corridor is state owned: A question has been asked as to whether or not the rail-trail conversion would be considered public works:

Jim McCulleys response:
ARTA has said they will take over management of the trail and the construction. Just as ASR does not have to follow prevailing wage as a lease holder. The same should apply to ARTA.

From the New York Bureau of Public Works:
Question: What is a Public Works Project?: Answer: A three-prong test is applied to determine whether a particular project is public work and subject to the prevailing wage requirements of Labor Law § 220 and article I, § 17 of the State Constitution. First, a public agency must be a party to a contract involving the employment of laborers, workmen, or mechanics. Second, the contract must concern a project that primarily involves construction-like labor and is paid for by public funds. Third, the primary objective or function of the work product must be the use or other benefit of the general public.

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

A quote from the ARTA Facebook Page about the company who is proposing free rail-trail conversion for the Remsen-Lake Placid rail corridor:

TOM CONNORS: People should know that Joe Hattrup and Iron Horse Preservation Society has a long history of taking forever to complete their obligations. They have removed rail, sold it, and then run out of money to actually install the surface that was promised to municipalities. I am sad to say that I would absolutely not recommend anyone do business with that organization. Very sad to say, but it is true. Years of municipalities trying to get something done as Iron Horse failed to complete the work on time or on budge. Sad.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/107243836054598/

wmd-fleet · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:59 pm

Recently brought the Lake Placid train down to Thendara for the winter. Was my first time. What a awesome time. Every New Yorker and visitor should have the same oppurtunity to do the same. What a tremendous asset the people of New York have.

C. Talluto
CMO/Mechanical Supervisor
Adirondack Scenic Railroad

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:36 pm

This came up on my Facebook page, though how I came across it I don't know:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 088&type=1

For those who can't get to Facebook, this is a link to an album of four photos, all around the Route 86 grade crossing. Here are the photos in what should be open links accessible by all:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4f73ecf372

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54E811D9

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... f5e4b4bf01

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=54DA9A5A

What is most notable about these photos is the date: January 13, 2014. Note how little snow there is at this date, which is about halfway into the snowmobile season.

Here is the text with the album:

Quote:

"These photographs were taken at the Ray Brook railroad crossing with NYS Route 86 on January 13, 2014. As you can see there is very little appreciable snow pack on the Saranac Lake to Lake Placid section of the Remsen-Lake Placid Rail Corridor. This is approaching the halfway mark of the snowmobile use period for the corridor, December 1st through March 31st, and there is very little snow. The only appreciable snow reaching this section of the corridor and allowing sufficient grooming and snowmobile activity here finally occurred in the month of March! The previous 2012-2013 snowmobile usage period fared about as well. Even Jim McCulley [ARTA board member and very aggressive advocate of the trail] publicly stated on an interview aired on a Mountain Lake Journal Extra segment that he went through recent records for trail grooming and he couldn't get on the corridor until late January. With global climate change and highly variable snow pack conditions in the Adirondacks, are we going to sacrifice this potentially valuable rail infrastructure to allow for a few additional weeks of adequate snowmobile usage? We think NOT!"

Below are the following comments from this album:

Quote:

Rusty Russum Amen
13 hours ago · Like

Pete Snyder The snowfall is unpredictable. There is more reliable snow for snowmobiling on the south end due to lake effect snow... I have cut brush and worked on the track late in the season many years. As you say it's a short window season wise for snowmobiling up here.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Rusty Russum Now some might agree that snowfall up here in this area TL-LP is not as good as on the Thendara end. I remember that for the 1980 games we had to truck snow in from Canada. Riding the train up we all said, "Where's the snow?" Now watch the folks who want the trail ignore the facts and start pushing for bikes and walkers; completely brushing aside the snowmobile idea.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Friends of the Rails - Adirondack Rail Corridor In some respects it would be nice to have a good old fashioned Adirondack snowfall this season so the tracks could get suitably covered so the snowmobile community can have their fun to their hearts delight during the Winter months. We don't begrudge them that! What we take serious issue with is the removal of the rails just because "Mother Nature" has dealt them a bad hand as far as the snow pack in recent seasons. Blaming the rails for this shortcoming is ludicrous and eliminating valuable rail infrastructure which would be next to impossible to replace is pure folly! This infrastructure destruction just so they can achieve a few more weeks of activity during a low snow pack year is truly NUTS!
12 hours ago · Like

Pete Snyder Agreed, I too am happy when they have deep enough snow to run on it, why not- but as you say, it usually is only for a matter of weeks, maybe a month but not usually much more. In the meantime when the snow is less, people can still cross country ski or snowshoe or hike etc no problem with the rail in place. It seems such a crazy idea to tear all the infrastructure out for such a short snowmobile season. More, there has been plenty of press lately about the new younger generations forgoing cars and buying houses etc.
12 hours ago · Like · 1

Pete Snyder hmmm. And those younger people want "transit" to get around... Eventually, if the Adirondack's want tourists, they will need alternative ways to get here because they won't own a car. It is a real trend.
12 hours ago · Like · 1

Rusty Russum Good argument, Pete, we are all but cut off up here, one flight or two a day to Boston, and one bus a day to Albany nothing else exists. So let's keep the rail and get some vendor to offer two or three faster trains a day...
11 hours ago · Like · 1

Jamie Sheffield I'd love to see the rails torn out and the space made into trails for snowmobiles and bikes and skiers and walkers ... that seems of more potential use to the area than an expensive retrofit of tracks that lead to Utica.
11 hours ago · Like

Friends of the Rails - Adirondack Rail Corridor Jamie Sheffield, Its still a free country and you are entitled to your own opinion and unlike the ARTA Facebook sites who vehemently censor any dissenting posts like some sort of Moscow Politburo, we well let your comment remain - for now. Just the ty...See More
9 hours ago · Edited · Like

Bruce Young Jamie: Why can't there be both? Are we running out of available land around here? I think not. Besides, the rail-line is open (what seems like) 90% of the time -- so quitcherbitchin' and get on the rail-line, man.
37 minutes ago · Like

David Lubic Bruce, in fairness to Jamie, the place where this railroad runs is the Adirondack Park in New York, which has been designated a wilderness area with very severe restrictions on new construction; that would include a new parallel trail.

Having said that, there are also questions of whether the trail would be built once the railroad was taken out. Those same people who have been backing the snowmobile people are also alleged to be behind an idea of eventually removing all powered equipment from the Adirondacks, even all settlements. Sounds wild, I know, but that's some of the talk that's around, and there is some evidence to give it a bit of credibility.

There are other alternatives. Some are a combination of existing roads, a limited amount of new construction outside the delicate area, and some existing trails that already parallel the railroad. However, the trail people have claimed this isn't adequate, that what they want amounts to a superhighway for snowmobiles.

The bad thing--snowmobile registrations are down in New York by about 33% in the last 10 years or so; this includes snowmobiles from out of state that are registered to operate in New York (a state requirement, which includes a license fee that goes to trail maintenance). Snowmobile sales have declined even more--50% in the last 10 years, and an amazing 66% in the last 16 years! In my opinion, for whatever reason or reasons (Poor economy? Aging population? Replacement by ATVs, which can run year round?) the snowmobile trade is in such serious trouble that any claims its proponents make about growth from their business should be taken with a dose of salt.
10 minutes ago · Like

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:39 pm

There is another thread on this subject that is worth looking at, even though it is in the railfan section:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35714&p=222998#p222998

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:43 pm

Another Facebook group, this one in favor of the railroad--and it also apparently has an arrangement where linked Adirondack Daily Enterprise stories can be accessed. This one does link to stories in favor of the railroad--and isn't afraid to link to stories critical of it, either.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends- ... 4709132088

An "unfavorable" letter is this one, which can be accessed through the Friends of the Rails site, but is not likely to be accessible directly here. The link is only included to show that this group is not afraid to let its readers know what the opposition may think:

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5256

The gist of this letter is that the two people involved tried to hike on the railroad, but had difficulty with the surface (and railroads are never easy to walk on), and that they say many bad ties. This is, of course, on the out-of-service segment that was still good enough for ferry moves recently.

A letter more favorable to the railroad, and critical of the trail crowd, is this one, again accessible from Friends of the Rails:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... id/547585/

Selected quotes from this letter:

Quote:

After many years of supporting the sport of snowmobiling and enjoyed the activity myself, I have had a change of heart. As a good neighbor and supporter, I have allowed the local snowmobile club to access and cross my property for decades. Unfortunately, due to the aggressive tactics of the New York State Snowmobile Association (NOT the local club or individual members), I will no longer grant access to these lands. I also request to have my name removed from NYSSA membership list.

The NYSSA has been very active and involved with several wealthy backers in an ongoing assault on the nonprofit Adirondack Railway Preservation Society. This group has led a coordinated propaganda campaign to justify ripping out the railroad using studies they funded claiming ridiculous economic benefits of removing the railroad so a few more weekends a year can be had by snowmobiles. In spite of diminishing snowfall, decreased snowmobile registrations and 10,000 miles of trails already subsidized by taxpayers, they just have to have these 70 miles of rail ripped out in spite of the fact it is used as a trail already.

This aggressive tact [sic] of NYSSA to deny the 95 percent of the population access and use of the corridor to extend the enjoyment of their sport for a few weekends is pure selfishness. The taxpayers who don't snowmobile have just as much right to access the Adirondack wilderness as the few who choose to ride a sled. The young and old, fit and unfit also pay to maintain the Park and infrastructure, and have a right to access if they choose, or if they are unable to afford or operate a snowmobile. . . .

David H. Link

Blossvale

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1087

J3a-614 wrote:

Another Facebook group

Please stop crapping up this thread with irrelevant links to FB posts and ADE letters -- those are absolutely meaningless to the public input process that NYSDOT and NYSDEC are following.

Comments must be emailed to nystravelcorridor@dot.ny.gov or mailed to NYS Travel Corridor, NYS DOT Freight and Passenger Rail Bureau, 50 Wolf Road, POD 5-4, Albany NY 12232. Comments must be delivered to NYSDOT by December 15.

Comments may also be provided verbally during the remaining two public comment meetings scheduled to take place: November 6, 2014 6:00-8:00 PM in Tupper Lake at the Wild Center and November 7, 2014 1:00-3:00 PM in Lake Placid at ORDA.

Every minute spent reading FB or ADE rants is a minute wasted -- the only thing that matters are comments sent directly to NYSDOT.

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:00 am

Quote:

Please stop crapping up this thread with irrelevant links to FB posts and ADE letters -- those are absolutely meaningless to the public input process that NYSDOT and NYSDEC are following.

Ouch!

Quote:

Every minute spent reading FB or ADE rants is a minute wasted -- the only thing that matters are comments sent directly to NYSDOT.

No argument, and I'm doing that, too! Not quite all ready to go--but that's partially due to the size of it (and a couple of people here know a bit about that).

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

Well, one day after the public comment period for the future of the Remsen-Lake Placid rail corridor expires, the Governor of New York makes the following announcement:

http://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governo ... evelopment

Note the very first bullet:

"Adirondack Railway Preservation Society of Utica, Oneida County, received $791,000 to construct a maintenance and repair facility in Utica for the Adirondack Scenic Railroad;"

This represents some strong support for the railroad. This is a significant signal the railroad has the ear of the Governor.

Jim

Heavenrich · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am **Posts:** 630

jefalcsik wrote:

Note the very first bullet:

"Adirondack Railway Preservation Society of Utica, Oneida County, received $791,000 to construct a maintenance and repair facility in Utica for the Adirondack Scenic Railroad;"

This represents some strong support for the railroad. This is a significant signal the railroad has the ear of the Governor.

Jim

While this is potentially good news, I wouldn't read that much into it because it only mentions Utica and not the Lake Placid area.

Bob H

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

An article dated yesterday, 12-17-2014, about a very unfortunate accident between a snowmobile and a trail user on the Erie Canal Trail:

http://romesentinel.com/public-safety/s ... 2aHNmjTUA/

A good example of why certain aspects of a multi-use trail do not mix well.

Jim

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

Quote:

While this is potentially good news, I wouldn't read that much into it because it only mentions Utica and not the Lake Placid area.

Bob H

In the political world, nothing would surprise me. However, this is good news. If nothing else there is clearly a commitment by the Governors Office to support the ASR and the existing operation in the Adirondacks. Certainly, what comes of the rail-trail debate has yet to be seen, but this is helpful to the railroad by any measure.

Jim