If you ask me you would have a much easier time working the S3, as the FWRHS worked on 765, you have a head start, 765 was full outdoor restoration, its progression and for the museum was progressive to where it is now. On grits end trying to restore an engine took dedicated people with some mad skilz with the goal to make this engine run. All your problems you describe really sound somewhat trivial compared to this. But now you know you have a challenge ahead of you but one that is not insurmountable. Give us updates on how it goes.

Some people like to see old diesel engines start up and run:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Z2rebTRwo

PC

If you run on track where freight is handled for pay, you need a blue card.
Otherwise you can self-define an inspection method that makes sense for you.

There is a tendency for foamers to grab copies of 49 CFR and go straight for the technical stuff and ignore the boring administrative stuff like 49 CFR 229.3(b)(1), which says what I just said above.

There is also a tendency for naysayers and trolls to demoralize you for fun or to feel superior.


However there is one ugly reality, that constrains the number of active locomotives at every museum I know. Locomotive batteries age. Whether you use them or not. There are eight batteries, each 8-volt. You will need to replace 1-2 a year depending on how you care for them. They are $400-800 each.

The workaround we have used at the Southern Michigan Railroad Society is to use a welder to provide the burst of current to start the locomotive, and a worn out set of batteries more-or-less as a capacitor to keep the auxiliary generator balanced.

To get worn out batteries, try golf cart repair shops. Some golf carts use 8 volt batteries - you need those. When a golf cart battery has lost about half its deep cycle capacity, it is "junk to them" because it will no longer make 18 holes, but still has years of life for you. It's nothing but a core to them, so the golf cart place might take a couple bucks for it, especially if you have automobile batteries kicking around to use as cores, any will do.

Do not trade away a locomotive battery, you'll need that for a core if you buy a locomotive battery.


The other reason to accept an old locomotive is trade-bait.

From my understanding of their proposed museum site looking at the architects plans, they will have three disconnected tracks on a parcel of land across the mainline from the station, and that the S3 would be on one of those tracks. This is why I said with some assurance that they would not need a blue carded locomotive at this time. Even if the track that the S3 is on was connected to the mainline via a switch, it is still just an industry siding beyond the derail and gate.

The battery issue is legitimate, but I've seen solar installations that have battery life of ten years or better. Would a bank of 8D AGMs have enough CCAs to turn over the 539 engine? And if the batteries were maintained properly I think they may last a good long time.

I think you have to figure out whether you want to change the tenor of your museum. From what I've seen in your postings here, Matt, you have a good core of dedicated people who do great work in acquiring and restoring wooden rolling stock, and your current plans for exhibiting are solid. If you decide to become an "operating" museum, you run the risk of deflecting some of that enthusiasm away from restoration and exhibition.

And if you decide to run your S-3, it won't be long until some suggests that you need a caboose to offer rides to the public, and then it will be a coach, and then you will need more railroad to operate over. You will then need to inspect and maintain rolling stock and track, and you'll wind up paying more for insurance on your site.

You guys have to decide where your interests and priorities really lie.

I'm curious why the donation was sought/collected, then the questions came up post-donation. Could a long-term storage/operation agreement with the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer be an option?

The impression I got was that it was offered to them by a short line with which the Chapter has had a long working relationship (occasional excursions, etc.). In fact, I would suggest (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the possibility of this eventual donation had been discussed long before the narrow-gauge equipment even started showing up, possibly decades ago......

Thanks for replies to this topic- particularly those that remained on topic and didn't jump into the dramatic "you people are at a crossroads," or "well, you either got the people to do this or you don't" or "you have to decide what you want to be." I appreciate what you are trying to say, really, but yes we have the manpower, and the funds, and we are not at crossroads, we are just trying to grow INTELLIGENTLY. Thus the questions over something we really know very little about and hopefully learn from those of you that have been there.

About us- The SE Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum is a collaborative effort between the Newton (NC) Depot Authority and the Alexander Chapter-NRHS. Think of the NDA as the keeper of the buildings, the chapter is the keeper of the rolling stock and is the volunteer manpower for the museum. We have spent the last four years acquiring property adjacent to our depot and raised nearly $700,000 in the process, including building 300ft of covered dual gauge track. Our campus is split by what is now a Norfolk Southern industrial lead (formerly the Carolina & Northwestern mainline) with only ONE customer on it whose existence is tenuous. This three mile lead connects to another 7-mile corridor that is railbanked by NCDOT and leads to another small town to the south of us. It is our LONG TERM ambition that the line either is turned over to a shortline friendly to our operations, or indeed, operated by us. Thus the comment about us acquiring the line soon, or 10 years, or never, and the relevance of the future status of the locomotive's Blue Card. Ambitious? Yes. Dreaming? Perhaps. But again, we are trying to do it intelligently. If we had the time and funds and opened the doors full time in the fall, we would have 3 narrow gauge boxcars, 2 ng passenger cars, and one ng log car in the collection. On the standard gauge side, we would have 2-6-0 VC #50, Edwards railcar Yadkin #100, an 1890 Harrisburg Car tankcar, a Ps-1 Southern boxcar, and a SR baywindow cab. Our membership has a superb mix of historians, woodworkers, and a full-blown wood/cabinet shop. We also have a retired NS car-knocker (35 years), a retired locomotive engineer (25 years), a couple of mechanics, and the support of the railroad donating the engine.

Anyway, as Sandy correctly noted, this new locomotive is from our chief benefactor, is a locally important engine, and was ALWAYS coming to us, even from when this pipe dream began some 20 years ago. We don't want her to go to another museum, nor does our benefactor. She is as original as an Alco gets (so some of the "just throw in antifreeze" remarks are ill-advised) and she has solid bearings (no leasing her to other shortlines or museums).

All of the issues and questions that I brought up in the original list were issues that the railroad itself brought up as they begin to prep the engine for the donation, and many of the answers you guys gave pro and con were exactly what is being reasonably debated internally. I will say the RR seems a LOT more concerned about the pit, inspection for vermin nests, flashover causing fires, and the waterpump fragility/rarity than some of the responses gave it credit for. Perhaps all parties are correct.

Again, thanks for all of the responses,

Matt

My response was limited by the amount of information given. The more info. you leave out, the more guessing I had to do. Had much of the info. in your last post been included in the first, the recommendations would have been different.

How was I supposed to know that you have a group of able volunteers? I can't guess your mind.
How was I to know that it was the donor railroad concerned about a pit? Can't read their mind either.

The most recent receipt I was able to find says $631 a piece with a core and taxes for a rebuilt battery with 2333CCA.


If you have a second locomotive with good batteries, you can also jumpstart the other one, many shortlines use this method. Otherwise, using a welder is also a railroad used method.



Just remember golf cart batteries are nowhere near the size and power (watts) of a locomotive battery.

My own comments on other concerns: no need for anti-freeze or a block heater if you drain the locomotive (PROPERLY!) for the winter. Taking the batteries out of the locomotive and putting them indoors would also be a good idea.

With regards to a pit, I can start listing off shortlines that have no pit, have never had a pit, and still keep the locomotives rolling. Pits are a luxury, not a necessity.

Fuel: as was said earlier; a tank should last a year in your environment.

I'll ask the dumb question-what is so bad about antifreeze? shouldn't need any conversion. I had assumed that they avoided it due to the size of the system, railroads were OK with idling them for months at a time, availability of steam heat, etc. I can't imagine why you couldn't just pour in a quality antifreeze. Anytime the system had plain water in it, cold, it would be conveying oxygen to the entire system and decaying it from the inside out. Quality antifreeze should last almost forever, it's common on industrial engines to use coolant filtration and treatment, since the basic parts-ethylene glycol and water, last forever.

Battery maintenance should be a religion at most museums. Keeping them clean, charged, and full of water I would expect RR type batteries to last 10 years or more. As expensive as they are you can't afford to let them die early.

Hi,

1) mothballing it is an option - The US Battleships from WWII (and before) were mothballed in the 1950's and (with exceptions like the New Jersey) had not moved until they were put back into service in the 1980s.

2) Most steam locomotives have no new parts available (except for odd items like flues). New parts can be blacksmithed at almost any time.

3) put the locomotive back into "mint" (whatever that is) mechanical condition and use it for a revenue generating source.

4) Stuffing and Mounting it is an option. The Southeastern RR Museum received #21 (2-8-0) in the 1960s. When opened in the 1990's for evaluation, the grease markings were still in the cylinders and boiler). #21s tender was rotted through and only the fact that 750, 290, and Ga Power 97 were operable at the time kept 21 from being needed for any operations.

Hope this helps.

DOug vV

Not 100% sure about ALCOs, but not putting anti-freeze in EMDs dates back to the early 567's tendency to get a little of the water into the lube oil. (C and AC/BC conversions solved this) Antifreeze does bad things to bearings. Where I work (all EMD, with A - C, DE, and E blocks), antifreeze is used in everything with C and up. A & B blocks have block heaters or get drained for the winter.

If you think you have too little trackage to consider a running Alco, consider the recent restoration of CP 7020 in Toronto. "Ridden hard and put away wet" was how it was described, yet they got her 539 running recently. Their total trackage is however long the roundhouse stall is, the length of the turntable and some garden tracks outside. They have no live rail connection and no where to run her, but nonetheless they got her operational.

My understanding is that Class 1s don't like antifreeze due to leaks, several hundred gallons is considered a catastrophe if it leaks. A thrown rod or other failure - not uncommon with today's high output engines - and you have a water-soluble environmental hazard that can be spread over several miles.
And, as mentioned, earlier engines weren't as water-tight; a coolant leak could be catastrophic for the engine.

CD