One more chapter should be added...relationships with host railroads. Many get a working locomotive but then stumble on dealing with the carrier they wish to run on. I think that should also be a valid chapter, and this manual is quite timely and I think it can be a valuable tool to use in the future on how to get it done. Collectively, this board has the expertise to make such a manual, and whatever I can to do contribute, let me know....

Not just how to deal with host railroads, but everyone else who needs to buy in if you're going to run excursions, or often just get a locomotive moved. Diplomacy is an art.

As for Humpty Dumpty, there's something that should be in the gentle warnings: how many projects have you known to be slowed, stopped or severely damaged because people took parts home to work on, something happened to them, and the family tossed the parts? At the same time, distributing parts does allow for winter work if there's no heat and bad weather, getting something to a specialist, etc. There's a way to account for where everything is at all times. Getting the message to families, etc. that the funny-looking gizmo on Dad's workbench does not belong to them is another thing.

In my scenario, we're aiming for an audience of people who mean well and want to keep an engine from being scrapped, but probably have no idea whatsoever about what they're getting into. They're going to be bombarded by bad information from both sides--Mr. Sure She'll Run and Mr. She'll Fall Apart When You Try To Move Her. The odds that a non-rail historian will know where to look for the boiler code, etc. are very slim, the odds that they'll find a competent advisor by guess and by gosh even smaller. They'd need to know how to evaluate claims and where to start looking for help.

Another thing: the size of the engine does matter, but would rank beginners know that? A brief sidebar describing what various classes were used for and what they can handle might be a good addition. That cute little tank engine is not going to be pulling twenty coaches at 60 per, and that Yellowstone won't fit on that little dab of track.

I think it is also necessary to stress the importance of somehow gaining the support of the community (even if the engine was boarded up). Businessmen will go for economic pull if there is a place to run it. Achieving national attention, even if it is just an article or two on Trains Newswire or something, is good. However, this can cause problems with extra advice that may be inaccurate. Distinguishing between good and bad sources is sometimes a difficult skill for the inexperienced.

Also, if it's an emergency, do you call local media, or not?

I live in the middle of "council said it was a personnel matter so it was a closed meeting, they voted on it in the dark and now it's gone." Half of my son's favorite golf course closed that way just this week--last week it was business as usual, this week the back nine was torn out for "camping." (Has to be tent camping, at that. There are no utilities.) The park board pitched it to the media as "we're adding a nine-hole golf course." Yeah,mand subtracting the eighteen-hole one! If anyone had found out the real idea, could they have stopped the destruction, or would the vindictive fit that followed have them rip out the whole thing?

Rosby's Rock near Moundsville, WV is still not on the National Register because someone put out the press release twelve hours early. They assumed the coal company wanted to have the news break for six o'clock clock, when they actually wanted to save it for morning when the CEO would do the press conference. There was such rage that the rock was nearly dynamited in the middle of that night. I don't understand why it was so terrible, but the timing was the company's choice.

I know this is more of a "best practices," but it is sounding like the general consensus is also as a guide for those philanthropists and interested parties who are new to preservation. With that in mind, I would like to kibitz and suggest that a couple more chapters be considered:

- Legalities and Liabilities
The chapter title is pretty self-explanatory, but this chapter could delve into the intricacies of laws regarding steam locomotives, for example state boiler laws vs FRA regulations. Insurance and other liability issues would also be addressed. Both of these areas can become muddled for the preservation newcomer, and cannot be overlooked.

-Collaboration
One concept that has helped the community be as successful as it has is the cooperative nature it has. There's often the remarks about egos and rivalries, but the truth is I've been fortunate in my short, limited time to witness much of the exact opposite. The 611 restoration is a prime example of what can happen when a lot of people with a wealth of knowledge come together on a project. To look at the log of people who have put in time on it, it almost reads as a "who's who" of steam preservation in the eastern half of the US. A chapter devoted to providing advice on those new to "the game" on what organizations out there have the knowledge, background and respect within the community can be a very useful guide to an individual or organization looking to undertake steam preservation for the first time. Yes, the idea is that this book is intended to gather that wealth of knowledge into a source that can be referred to, but practical experience will always trump what the manual says. Collaboration is a crucial part of the preservation community's successes; crucial enough that it could be deserving of its own chapter.

Don't forget the chapter on establishing and maintaining good relations with every political entity in which you are located. They may not all help your cause, but tick 'em off and you'll find they have unlimited power to hurt you. When you encounter conflicts with the laws, the laws will win.

This is what I meant. Absolute, rank beginners are the people most likely to get wind of a piece of equipment about to be scrapped. The rail preservation community often finds out too late because the scrapping is a city council "emergency" and nothing ever goes on an auction site. There needs to be some division of the work devoted to "if it's an emergency, here's what to do" so a Google search will pop it up.

Oh, the number of times I've run into someone with completely insane ideas about what could and could not be done! Many of them really do not realize that a locomotive is not an antique car. After all, if you want to tinker with a Model T and get her running just enough to waddle around your own farm, neither you nor the car needs a license.

Bear in mind that some of the people will be highly resistant to being told they need help. The information on the emergency rescue page will have to be brief, forceful and explicit:
Who actually owns the engine/car/other artifact? If the city is trying to scrap it but it actually belongs to some civic group, that can buy time.
Can it be moved on a large rollback? That's the quickest way to get a passenger car out of trouble and might work for small locomotives.
If you're planning to move it by rail, whose rails are you going to use, who do you need to contact and how will you approach them?
If you need to get it out by truck, and it's too big to move in one piece, do you know how to take it apart without breaking it beyond repair?
If you don't have a good place to lock it up until you can work on it, where are you going to put it in the meantime? Remember that if someone says "you can leave that here till fall" they don't mean next fall, or a few years from now, or whenever we get our act together. They mean this fall, and even then it's best to ask whether they mean "ït needs to leave by September 1" or "I'd like to be able to put the motor home back in that garage before the snow flies." The best place to ask for really temporary storage, up to a couple of days, may be a truck stop. They have large lots where heavy loads can be parked and they have some security.

...and so on.

Becky, I have re-read each of the posts in the thread you started several times now and there is really a good amount of substance in these comments. Would it be possible to make a first pass of an outline of what should be in chapter one?

It seems we have a lot of information already available and a number of contributors seem to think a Steams Best Practices might be a good idea.

RL Kennedy asked who might actually read something like this? After thinking about his question for awhile - we have many steam locomotives today on display in parks. The care of these engines often leaves a lot to desired. Chapter one could provide a lot of information about how to approach improving the care of these engines without taking ownership. And yes we have Dave Lathrops article and J. David Conrads book to help with this which is an excellent start in my opinion. We need more work I think on the creation and organization of a group to facilitate or sponsor this type of effort.


Dave Griner was right in saying we have the NB - 57 code and the various builders standard practices to rely on for a good part of the technical information. We do not need to re invent the wheel - it's there in front of us.

I thank each poster in this thread for their thoughts and Becky for starting this thread - we have a very nice start if we wish to develop this further - and I hope we do.

One additinal thought - I personally would have loved to have something like what we are discussing available when Wayne Schmidt and I started to stabilize CB&Q 710 owned by the City of Lincoln, Nebraska in the mid 1980's. This engine is now on display at the Haymarrket Square in Lincoln after a fine cosmetic restoration by Midwest Central about 1990.

This experience changed me from a foamer to a person who really appreciated everything that had to be done to make any kind if a restoration succeed. I started to find out how much I didn't know (it was a LOT) and that process is still ongoing which is why I like RYPN so much. I can continue to learn from all of you.

Arnie Johnson

Sounds good to me. As you say, we have the technical information once we get to the next chapter. See what you think of this (and I'll help all I can, even if it's just sitting here asking dumb questions:)

--Introduction (I'd use the scenario, which is pretty all-purpose and should cover most of what a newly formed group might run into.)
--What are you trying to save? Why do you think it needs saving? (Possibly pointed questions about what seems alarming, since some people don't know how to judge the condition of an exhibit or why it may not be in any real danger.)
--Who owns it and what are they going to do with it that has your attention?
--What should you do about it? Can/should you do anything?
--If the artifact is in immediate danger, what can you do right now to buy time?
--Where can you find expert advice about the feasibility of the project?
--How many reliable people can you muster to work with you?
--What agencies should you talk to before any work begins?
--How long do you have to save the artifact?
--How much will it cost to stabilize the situation? Do you merely need paint, or a desperate bid to move a locomotive across country?
--What permits and approvals will you need if Project 97 moves forward? Can you get any of them underway while you're securing other permissions and funding?
--If you move it, where will you put it?

The actual Chapter One should start with making the final decision:
--Evaluating expert advice and deciding who to believe
--Nailing down the paperwork so it's loophole-free
--Setting up the move: where to, how and when
--Fundraising, and when to say you have enough to begin work
--Work that needs done before the move, and how to prevent sabotage and well-meaning accidents
--Preparing the path from current location and site that will receive the artifact
--Publicity for the move, attracting more money and volunteers
--Loading out
--Dealing with delays (legal, haulage, weather)
--Arriving at the storage site
--Securing the property (everybody's going to be tired and it'll be easy to make a huge mistake like leaving a door or chain unlocked)

Should Chapter Two be the beginning of the restoration choices themselves?

The points you listed are good. In addition I would suggest we integrate these quotes into the introduction.


[quote="David H. Hamley"]Don't forget the chapter on establishing and maintaining good relations with every political entity in which you are located. They may not all help your cause, but tick 'em off and you'll find they have unlimited power to hurt you. When you encounter conflicts with the laws, the laws will win.

I do not yet know how to use RyPN posts so please bear with me. I will learn soon.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV's comment about being an imposition has a wide range of valuable applications. What is an emergency in our mind may well be considered an impediment to others involved. We need to carefully consider how we come across to others.

Dave's comments about aligning our interests with the community needs is critical for success in my opinion.

Much of what we are discussing is focused on the emergency situation. I think we should consider trying to get ahead of the curve wherever possible. The more we can have ongoing competent organizations to care for existing engines - perhaps we will already have our foot in the door should an emergency start to arise.

I am starting to think that a well done introduction/ chapter one could provide us with the big picture to start. We may want to incorporate checklists for portions of this.


Arnie Johnson

Before a formal organization is established to raise funds and potentially assume ownership, the proponents need be aware of the need to incorporate, establish a 501(c)(3) (which can take considerable work and time), and of the record keeping that will be needed for the duration of the project. (Working under the oversight of an established 501(c)(3) "fiscal sponsor" can be an option, but that has its own set of challenges and costs.)

Under potentially liabilities, be aware of who is responsible if there is white stuff under the wrapper and falling onto the ground under the locomotive. Does it have to be removed, what has to be done to remove it legally, and what will it cost?

I'm worried that we are beginning to confuse two things here: the steps that are taken in the course of a given restoration, and the practices that are used to conduct the restoration.

If you put both of those in one manual, it will be very long, very complex, and perhaps run the risk of inducing MEGO syndrome in many ordinary people who try to use it. I would suggest immediately separating those two things.

I remember, years ago, there were two defective user-interface conventions in word-processing software ... I don't remember the exact products, but it wouldn't be hard to find them ... when it came time to print something. One of them used 'modal dialog boxes' (which require an answer typed into them before the program will proceed to do anything. This was a bit like Chinese water torture as box after box after box came up, each with its own little choice, and no way to say 'just let me pick options and go ahead'). The other had a very long page full of options, all of which had to be correctly set (and many of which had 'default' values entered into them that had to be changed to non-intuitive things) before anything meaningful would happen. I also remember John Dvorak mentioning in PC Magazine that 'no one but a nerd can run WordPerfect' -- he went on to note 'But you say "I use WordPerfect and I'm not a nerd" ... yes, but I submit to you that when you have to remember something like having to type Shift-F7, 3, N, 1 to make a page come out of the printer, you're a nerd'. And I still think he was right.

I think we need to be careful to differentiate different aspects of the 'best practices' to avoid somewhat analogous effects on any prospective 'adopters' (many of whom won't be starting out with professional preservation discipline or mindset). The 'user interface' and the 'interaction design' of our proposed manuals are important, and I think perhaps should be determined first (and then kept integrally revised as the work proceeds to ensure they are maintained).

True. The "help, what dowe do?" manual can be as short and simple as we can make it. It's easy enough to separate that from the actual best practices book/website/whatever documents become, even though the users will need that eventually.

I remember WordStar and WordPerfect. I think WP was the one with the 27-step print process. When we got ProWrite, people insisted it couldn't be a real word processor because Ctrl-P got me a printed page. Who knew you could use a tab called "Defaults", pick what you needed and (gasp) save your preferences?

Even though the actual Steam's Best Practices needs to be a tech-heavy beast, it still needs to be as user-friendly as we can make it. The document for raw beginners HAS to be. They're in a panic, or righteous indignation, and they need a "calm down, here's what to do, here's what not to do, and this is how it works" guide.

Imposition? Yeah, especially when local politicians are trying to do something fast and underhanded. I still chuckle at the one who was led out of court all but shaking her fist and yelling "My plot would have worked if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

Case study of a bad outcome: West Virginia Northern.