F40PH Preservation, Round Four...............

cjvrr · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:14 pm

Richard Glueck wrote:

I find it a bit shocking that people jump of the IRM as a first choice for locomotive preservation. I've yet to visit them, but maybe I'm unaware of unlimited space and unlimited funds? Most organization are juggling what they've collected or had inflicted upon them, with available money.

Richard, I would strongly suggest you visit this museum when you get a chance. I did so this past summer. The site is enormous! I personally was amazed at the size of the collection, the amount that sits under cover, and the amount of open space available for additional tracks and buildings. In addition there is adjacent farmland that may be available if future needs require additional space.

I was thoroughly impressed with this operation.

wilkinsd · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:25 pm

Richard Glueck wrote:

I find it a bit shocking that people jump of the IRM as a first choice for locomotive preservation. I've yet to visit them, but maybe I'm unaware of unlimited space and unlimited funds? Most organization are juggling what they've collected or had inflicted upon them, with available money.

Translation: "I know nothing about IRM, yet I see the need to comment."

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:25 pm

If we're waving credentials here: I visited the IRM solo last Easter Sunday, the only day I could pry out of a jam-packed Upper Midwest junket, arriving even before the staff and parking initially in the volunteer parking lot. Even though the place was being run by perhaps a grand total of three people (or so it seemed), I was floored, and could not possibly give the place its due justice.

The place is supposedly even more impressive when more people are there, or so I'm told. >;-)

Mount Royal · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:39 pm

Im just waiting for one particular individual to comment with my popcorn in the microwave, waiting to press the start button.

Seriously though, IRM seems like a logical home for one of these things. I’d like to get out there some day as well. I hear good things.

Richard Glueck · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:31 pm

Wilkins, when most RR museums struggle for room and basic funding, people consistently suggest IRM take it on. In your usual demeanor, you have to spit in the soup.

NS 3322 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:25 pm

F40PHR231 wrote:

NS 3322 wrote:

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

231 was preserved privately by an individual in the Portland, Oregon area along with SDP40F 644. Both are currently in Ogden, Utah.

Wasn't this individual recently evicted from Ogden Union Station?

The locomotives are owned by Dynamic Rail Preservation Inc. and DynaRail was not served an eviction (such a harsh word!) but rather notified of future changes. DynaRail was originally given an opportunity to establish a restoration work area to return both units back into Amtrak liveries, but as time progressed, we held back from setting up shop since it was clear the city had other plans to develop the parcel. Knowing what we knew, it would have been irresponsible for us to proceed with capital expenditures using funds donated to us, only to have them evaporate with nothing to show for it. The foundation that managed Union Station had given DynaRail verbal notice that, due to space constraints and the need to move other locomotives and cars to the tracks locomotives #231 and #644 are currently spotted, equipment not owned by Union Station or the city would need to vacate the premises or pay storage fees. A short time later, the city council dissolved the foundation's control, and city departments/employees took over management of the depot.

DynaRail announced that a search was on for a new place for the locomotives to call home. The criteria, obviously, being that the locomotives can proceed with restorative work to be returned back into its in-service liveries, and that they contribute to the museum by being a shining example of Amtrak history. Ogden played a crucial role in helping the locomotives escape from continued vandalism during their storage in Portland in a urgent manner, and I am forever grateful for that. There are many individuals in Ogden continuing to fight the good battle in name of rail preservation, so all is not lost in regards to potential clearing of the rail center for development; however, five years has passed since the original plan, so it's time to move on and relocate to a new place.

Thank you for clearing that up! I was not aware of the whole story.

RCD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:41 am

F40PHR231 wrote:

NS 3322 wrote:

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

231 was preserved privately by an individual in the Portland, Oregon area along with SDP40F 644. Both are currently in Ogden, Utah.

Wasn't this individual recently evicted from Ogden Union Station?

The locomotives are owned by Dynamic Rail Preservation Inc. and DynaRail was not served an eviction (such a harsh word!) but rather notified of future changes. DynaRail was originally given an opportunity to establish a restoration work area to return both units back into Amtrak liveries, but as time progressed, we held back from setting up shop since it was clear the city had other plans to develop the parcel. Knowing what we knew, it would have been irresponsible for us to proceed with capital expenditures using funds donated to us, only to have them evaporate with nothing to show for it. The foundation that managed Union Station had given DynaRail verbal notice that, due to space constraints and the need to move other locomotives and cars to the tracks locomotives #231 and #644 are currently spotted, equipment not owned by Union Station or the city would need to vacate the premises or pay storage fees. A short time later, the city council dissolved the foundation's control, and city departments/employees took over management of the depot.

DynaRail announced that a search was on for a new place for the locomotives to call home. The criteria, obviously, being that the locomotives can proceed with restorative work to be returned back into its in-service liveries, and that they contribute to the museum by being a shining example of Amtrak history. Ogden played a crucial role in helping the locomotives escape from continued vandalism during their storage in Portland in a urgent manner, and I am forever grateful for that. There are many individuals in Ogden continuing to fight the good battle in name of rail preservation, so all is not lost in regards to potential clearing of the rail center for development; however, five years has passed since the original plan, so it's time to move on and relocate to a new place.

Have you checked with IRM, I disagree that a Metra locomotives take priority as the Amtrak ones were the first order, and it was Amtrak who set the standard for how the locomotive would be built. The only other one that's really been preserved is the one at the California state Railroad Museum the other one in North Carolina is slated to become a test bed for a "green" battery operated locomotive. The MBTA also has some laying around 1000-1017 (minus the one scrapped) but no one seems to know (probably including the MBTA itself) what the plans are for them.

LeoA · **Joined:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am **Posts:** 312

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

LeoA wrote:

I imagine IRM will work hard to save one of the early examples when the day comes, but the F40PH has a place at Metra for years to come.

1) This "years to come" presumes that someone doesn't sweep in with an offer for a much "better" replacement, which from the apparent RFP could be anything from new locos with much better emissions and power output to complete rebuilding of the extant F40PH's (and other locos?) on Metra with new innards. The current fleet could "disappear overnight" like the AEM-7 almost did (about a year and a half from first ASC64 run to AEM-7 farewell), or be rendered something completely different, like a chop-nose GP10 out of a high-hood GP9 or the 645-equipped BN/Metra E8/E9 rebuilds--nice RR history, but not the "vintage loco."

The budget isn't that big and a sizable portion of the F40PH fleet has recently been rebuilt. Potentially threatened are the portions of their roster that have gone the longest since their last rebuilding, but many F40PH's will be rolling for Metra for years to come.

So the race isn't on as of yet, but I'm not familiar enough with the roster to know what portions of the F40PH fleet are at the top of the wishlist for replacement or major rebuilding. If it's the oldest examples from the original order by RTA which I believe were cycled through for rebuilding earlier this decade, I suppose it is urgent to start thinking about this now if one of the originals is to be saved (assuming they're replaced instead of rebuilt).

More urgent though are the two surviving F40C's. Short of maybe a hulk in the weeds at NRE that probably lost its 16-645 years ago, these are all that are left. Sounded like they'd be rebuilt and returned to service 2-3 years ago, potentially with new 710 engines. But they've just sat since then to the best of my knowledge. If Metra suddenly is able to buy dozens of new locomotives and rebuilding what they have ceases to be the necessity that economics have made it be over the past decade, that basically seals their fate as potential rebuild fodder and they'll be disposed of.

RCD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:12 pm

I really don't see the historical significance of the F40C. The Amtrak F40PH are the ones most in danger. The locomotive rebuild Market is really hot right now. If I ran a locomotive rebuild shop like Progressive rail I would love to get f40s since they are not suited for freight service they're relatively cheap they contain parts that are shared amongst a huge portion of freight locomotives especially on short lines. And I could utilize the frames and trucks for a genset build. The paneling and body parts could be saved the to sell to transit organization that still has f40s and might need some body repair or I could just scrap them. There's also a lot of misinformation about them which turns away potential tourist operations, there seems to be a belief among uninformed individuals that these things always run at full engin speed, and burn a lot of fuel. The fact is this is only one Friday and head and Power and can be run like a regular locomotive it's just a flip of a switch. It's sad that such a historic and iconic locomotive it's getting so little attention from the preservation community.

psa188 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:05 pm

RCD wrote:

It's sad that such a historic and iconic locomotive it's getting so little attention from the preservation community.

At least three F40PHs have been saved, two in museums in Sacramento and Spencer, and one by DynaRail. How many do we need to save?

Mount Royal · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:50 pm

.......and my popcorn is popping.

Jdelhaye · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:12 pm

RCD wrote:

I really don't see the historical significance of the F40C.

And once again, you fail to see the forest for the trees.

The F40C is the production locomotive model that introduced prime mover driven HEP, (preceded only by 5 experimental units*), a concept that was pioneered by Metra's predecessors

Jeff

* 4 experimental FM P12-42's, 2 each for the New Haven, & B&M
and the experimental conversion of Milwaukee Road E9A 33C's rear engine to power a HEP generator. (Metra predecessor line)

RCD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:30 pm

psa188 wrote:

RCD wrote:

It's sad that such a historic and iconic locomotive it's getting so little attention from the preservation community.

At least three F40PHs have been saved, two in museums in Sacramento and Spencer, and one by DynaRail. How many do we need to save?

If you bothered to read my post above you would see it is just two, the one in North Carolina is going to be remade into an expearmential battery powered locomotive. The only one of those two left that I can run is the one at the California state Railroad Museum. The other one was badly vandalized and had metal stolen from it. And if two was enough then by that logic we should scrap all those GG1s that are rusting away. In fact your whole argument about how many should be saved could be applied to 85% of the threads on this board.

RCD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:33 pm

Jdelhaye wrote:

RCD wrote:

I really don't see the historical significance of the F40C.

And once again, you fail to see the forest for the trees.

The F40C is the production locomotive model that introduced prime mover driven HEP, (preceded only by 5 experimental units*), a concept that was pioneered by Metra's predecessors

Jeff

* 4 experimental FM P12-42's, 2 each for the New Haven, & B&M
and the experimental conversion of Milwaukee Road E9A 33C's rear engine to power a HEP generator. (Metra predecessor line)

Didn't know that.

Lincoln Penn · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm **Posts:** 841

IMO, the F40C is not or only peripherally historically significant, but it is unique.

That alone doesn't make it worthy of all-out, panic attempts to save one or both, but it does make it interesting.

BTW, IRM has over 400 pieces of equipment and is still growing. Those who have not been there in the last couple of years (or at all) have no idea what they are missing.