Wonder what shape the frames and drivers are on that phosphate 4-4-0? I mean, restoration is obviously a pipe dream, but one can wonder, if the frames could still provide a strong backbone for a new boiler, wheels, trim, etc for it to steam.

I imagine those ATSF engines would at least be in restorable shape, maybe not pretty, but workable. It would be nice to see some ATSF 2-8-2s preserved, they are rare and here are some that still exist. What a shame it would be if they were lost forever, since none were saved in preservation as far as i know.

That 4-4-0 is so small and simple that it would cost less to replicate it using modern techniques than to try to salvage bits and pieces which, left together, make a meaningful interpretive artifact.

Good point. Yeah that's the thing about some of these engines. For some, if they were recovered could be restored, others just speak for themselves as historic artifacts and curiosities.

It would me remiss of me to view this thread and not mention that PRR 6435, a J1a, is potentially (probably) buried under a mound of earth in the NS yard in Pitcairn, PA.

I think it might be the largest buried locomotive, if it is indeed there. Raising it, however unlikely, would be amazing.

Never heard of a J1a survivor under or above ground; not even in a quarry!
Do tell all!

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I have found the story of the "Lost" Santa Fe steam engines intriguing as well.

The summary below is a little of what I know about the topic from readings and other accounts which may or may not be common knowledge to many people in the hopes that it may be valuable or interesting:

I have read portions of a book written about the lost engines (don't recall the author). As I recall the author stated several points that may be well-known:
1) It is believed that the missing engine sank in the river surrounded by one of the trusses.
2) the other two engines were later visible in a year with little rain and the more massive and easily accessible steel components (wheels, frame?) were cut off and scrapped, but no mention of the 3rd engine. Those engines were reportedly not far from the bridge and there may be newspaper pictures showing portions of the exposed engines.
3) The engines on the bridge were likely from the dead line and therefore not in great shape, but the pictures would seem to indicate some were definitely looking complete with tenders, etc.

There is an on-line reference for the bridge failure with pictures and a short description at the following link which also shows the location on a map (along with several pictures of the bridge and remaining locomotives after the flood:
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wmG ... _Topeka_KS


That book I recall may have referenced another book that is out of print but currently a copy is on ebay (not low cost) with about 10 pictures included in the listing that you can see including possibly the image of one of the missing locomotives 3167 (*corrected from 3176) in service? (not 100% sure on that):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-SANTA-FE-R ... SwoZBf47Sh

[Added edit: atsf.railfan.net reports that two 2-8-2 engines were lost: 3167 and 4076 (the other was a 2-6-2 #1059 per a report attributed to Warbonnet, 2nd Qtr 2001) - you can see what appears to be 4076 on a tender on one of the spans that was later lost in a picture on the ebay listing; from what I can tell 4076 is the one that most reports suggest was never found; meaning that 3167 was likely one that was partially salvaged.]

A third useful point would be that in Kansas City (<60 miles down river) there is a museum for the Steamship Arabia. (I recommend visiting the museum for anyone who has the time when in the area.) The steamship Arabia sank in the Missouri River (less than 60 miles I estimate from the Topeka Bridge with the locomotives on the Kansas River that washed out in 1951). The Steamship Arabia was located mainly through the use of sophisticated magnetometers and a review of historical records. It was found in a farmer's field in the former path of the Missouri River under 45 feet of dirt and was under the water table (saturated soil). I strongly suspect if the relatively small boiler on the Steamship Arabia could be located under 45 feet of soil that the "lost" ATSF locomotive could be located as well with less effort. You will see in the photos on the Steamship Arabia webpage that the boiler and pumps were fairly in tact (along with wood timbers) after being under water and/or under saturated soil for 132 years. I am sure the conditions could be different in the Kansas River (AKA Kaw River) but I suspect that they would not be that different. The type of steel may definitely be different however. You will see on the Arabia webpage that they have recently located another steamship (Malta). I recall on visiting the Arabia museum that they know a lot about the search and recovery topic - probably a lot more than they usually discuss; possibly they could be an excellent resource to advise on locating the locomotive and on what a recovery might take. The biggest difference might be that I notice that they seem to look for steamships in locations where the river channel has moved so that they are not having to build a coffer dam to excavate. It seems that the ATSF locomotive is likely under the river (channel has likely not changed much that I can tell).

Arabia Museum website: https://www.1856.com/

I would think the missing engine could be located with a magnetometer (see video for Malta steamship location effort on the Arabia Museum website) and I am surprised that someone hasn't identified the location, but not sure what the laws might be and the approvals that would be needed to either locate it and/or excavate. Digging in an open field I would expect is easier in terms of approvals (i.e. come to an agreement with the land owner) compared to a river (probably needs various approval).


The last item I will mention is completely uncorroborated and comes from memory. I recall a teacher relating her recollection of the Flood of '51 (in the Midwest they may speak about historic floods like people in the Gulf Coast speak about Hurricanes). She related that the river was flowing so fast that one of the "steam engines got washed down stream spinning end over end and was never found". At the time I thought the river must have been moving awfully fast to do that. I have no reason to doubt that they saw or believed that although I am not sure how physically possible that is given the weight of a steam engine (maybe an empty tender is more likely?). Whether this was a personal eyewitness observation or an account read in the paper or heard from someone else I do not know. I wouldn't think the engine is more than several hundred yards down stream, but that is just a guess (the bridge is at a bend of the river which I would think would not allow the engine to go too far). It may be hard to find out how fast the river was flowing at the time in that location, however. I can't reconcile the inconsistency between the teacher's recollection of the engine spinning end over end going down stream with the author's conclusion that the "lost" engine is likely entangled in the bridge spans that sank to the bottom of the river nor with an account that the fallen bridge spans (but not the "lost" engine) can be seen when the river is low.

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As I mentioned, I regard lost locomotives to be only archeological opportunities and not likely to be candidates for restoration for operation. I wonder if a recovered locomotive has ever been restored to operation without building a new boiler.

The condition of that Florida engine is about what I would expect with any locomotive recovered after being buried or submerged over a long period of time. Of course they will look shockingly deteriorated, but I would expect to find most of the iron to be intact once all the superficial rust and heavy corrosion is removed. Bear in mind that the Florida engine was stripped of any parts that could be easily removed, so its appearance is bound to be stark. The appearance also shows considerable damage apparently inflicted when using a backhoe to find and dig up the engine.

Likewise, I would not conclude that the New Jersey engines are entirely disintegrated just based on their appearance at the site in the video. There has been some information published about close inspection of the locomotives, but I don’t find that readily available at this time. It does appear that one of the two locomotives is quite damaged, and at one point, I recall mention of the site having been damaged by commercial fishing nets, or possibly anchors. But what interests me about that site is the antiquity of the locomotives.

As I understand, of the three ATSF engines in Kaw River at Topeka, one of them has never been seen or found since being lost. So it has never reemerged in low water or had any scrap cutting done on it since being lost. It should be easy to find with a magnetometer, either by using a boat or working on the ice, if that river freezes over. In any case, a locomotive would be a very rich target for magnetometer detection. Finding it would be the easy part.

I would think an actual recovery would be done by driving sheet piling to build a coffer dam around the engine. Then it would be dewatered and carefully excavated with delicate tools, washing, vacuuming, but no backhoe. Before beginning the coffer dam, further object detection would be done to pinpoint the engine outline boundary, and its depth. Once the engine is exposed, it would probably need to be partially disassembled in order to lift it out.

It may be that the locomotive is very near the surface of the river bottom, or even partly exposed and visible above the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_K_class_(1877)


https://youtu.be/jXSG71TWclw?t=240

I have seen old iron-wheeled tractors, steel plows etc. left to sink into the ground or dumped in streams a century ago in the midwest and they aren't nearly as bad as that 4-4-0. Much of the appearance of the Florida 4-4-0 is probably due to the corrosive material it sunk into, what is missing, the damage done when they pulled it out of the ground (looks like backhoe marks on the boiler) and also the half-job of cleaning it up, i.e. they didn't bother to empty material from the boiler or blast off the drivers. I wonder if the pilot truck, the running gear, the cab, the tender etc. are still in the ground.

Here's a steam shovel pulled from a lake and restored to operation in the UK. Not a locomotive but close enough.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug6hmnUvTps

Henry Sorensen dug an old locomotive out of a riverbed and restored it to operation. It seems like the ideal embodiment of that sort of goal. The engine was not fully buried, so its location was known, and the needed excavation was minimal. He only paid a dollar for it. It only weighed 6 tons, so moving it was not an overwhelming challenge.

http://ibls.org/mediawiki/index.php?tit ... Born_Again

Is that little engine still around?

That little locomotive was pictured in Ziel's "Twilight of Steam". I seem to recall the ranch and train shed were destroyed in a California wild fire. I hope I'm incorrect.