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Is 1309 really an “enhancement” over 734? People on this site constantly claim that the people buying tickets don’t care what’s pulling the train. Now you expect people will be excited to see a “special” steam engine?

Either way... they need to “enhance” the track before they enhance anything else :-p[/quote]

Absolutely! The 1309 will have significant more tractive effort than the 734, therefore increasing ridership capacity. Not to mention the hype over 1309, herself. Look at the Big Boy. That certainly drew crowds. Would it have been the same reaction had UP fired up a 2-8-0? Not as much.

This poses a valid question: how much of WMSR’s customer base is into trains, vs how much is just there for the experience?

I have always been skeptical of that claim.

Nor am I. I would really like to learn more about such certification.

DC

"Nobody cares what's pulling the train" if you're rolling slowly through a scenic canyon full of eagles (two such rides in the USA at least), serving dinner and a murder mystery, entertaining the folks with the Easter Bunny or strolling troubadours, or stopping at the Grand Canyon.

EVERYBODY cares when you've marketed "Lincoln's train," "the world's largest steam locomotive," "Mountain Thunder!", "last narrow gauge east of the Mississippi," the "official State Steam Locomotive," etc.

Back in the 1980s when the Wilmington & Western was marketed as a "steam railroad," when they had to use diesel when the steam was down, I was informed passenger counts declined 40-50% over steam operations. Now, less emphasis is placed on steam, and more on what's happening that weekend.......

Based upon the tens of thousands of riders we've carried over time I'd say that 98% of the non-railfan ( aka Daisy Pickers) could care less what's pulling the train. They're there for one themed event ( North Pole, Easter Bunny, Fall Foliage, Halloween etc.,etc.) or another and the vehicle happens to be a train.

The other 2% do care and to them the motive power is a key issue. The serious steam lover fraternity shrinks every year as the old timers who knew steam as kids die off. There are a relatively few new steam lovers created every year by events like the Big Boy's tour but no where near enough to keep pace with those moving on to the great Roundhouse in the sky.

Sad but true. Ross Rowland

Ross - I think that you are spot on. Unless an event that I am operating is locomotive specific (yes - we have held birthdays for locomotives, the free cake brings in crowds, or if I am specifically advertising steam), I seldom hear anything about the locomotive pulling the train.

I work trips pretty often these days, trips that are half day or more through mountains, and I bet out of hundreds of riders daily, I almost never hear a question about the locomotives. I do hear questions about the passenger cars - domes, lounges, etc. Some people seem to want to know whether their parents could have ridden them.

So, will 1309 bring in ridership? I think yes, if it is promoted well and promoted as a chance to ride behind a unique large steam locomotive. This could gain the operation some new publicity, which can help ridership. However, I also think that a large number of people will be on the train just for a train ride, and will never pay attention to the steam locomotive.

As an example, two years ago I was riding a special steam trip in Scotland. The train was running a regular route, but with steam. However, the train also featured a special tea and some other food events. Most of the riders went immediately to their cars for the food and never paid attention to the steam locomotive up front. A crew member told me that the steam got the publicity, but the food and tea sold the tickets.

Bart Jennings

In an age when most adults can't recall seeing a steam loco, a big, mainline size steam locomotive, in service, this is a major accomplishment. The track issue is only one side of the restoration and the dome car is irrelevant. And yet here is a group of railway preservationist feeding on their own. 1309 will find a place to operate and it's a restoration star for which we should all be shooting.

Another point to consider is that even if 98% don't care what is pulling their train when they buy their ticket, that doesn't mean 98% don't develop an interest or at least appreciate the steam locomotive during their visit. It's like trying a new restaurant because it's different and sounds appealing. That gets you in the door but it doesn't make you return or recommend it to your friends. Something needs to set it apart and for tourist railroads that might be the steam locomotive.

I think a lot of operations miss out on the opportunity to really showcase steam for what it is. Organizations focused solely on history wreak of a boring museum type experience and likely aren't attracting a younger crowd. I attend a few steam tractor shows each year and that hobby seems to be alive and well and growing. Those machines are even 30-40 years further removed from our daily lives than steam locomotives so I'm not sure that the idea that steam enthusiasts are dying off is really valid. It's all about presenting the technology for what it is in the present rather than dwelling on nostalgia. I'm seeing more and more younger folks on excursions so there is definitely some new blood to cultivate. Assuming no one will care because the generation who remembers is dying is a huge mistake.

When you run steam every day, it becomes old hat and you have to push the actual event or other draws outside of the locomotive. The railfans make up a small percentage of the actual paying ridership. Will 1309 bring crowds, yes. Will it last, probably not. That's when you have to start working for it.

Like has been said before getting the engine to where it is now was a huge feat considering the condition it was in. Those who think they were better off continuing to use 734 should go back and watch videos of the last few runs that engine made. It is really clear that running the train sizes they needed to in order to make a profit were taking a toll on an engine that was not meant for that purpose. Don't forget back when WM was running freight, they were using a dozen engines just like 734 to pull trains through the current route. Not to mention the fact that the last 3 miles to Frostburg is 3%.

Every time I rode WM they had diesel helpers. If they were working the 734 too hard that was because the crew wasn’t doing their job right. This is the first I’ve heard that the 734 was too small for the job though.

Yes I think WM would have been much better off rebuilding the 734 instead of tackling a project that was clearly too big for them.

Hindsight is always 20-20. It may have made more sense (both mechanically and financially) to overhaul 734 and obtain a diesel "B" unit to ride behind the engine on the upward journey. The Clinchfield did that with their small steam engine many years ago. To the casual observer, it was just a baggage car behind the engine. It could be uncoupled before the turntable and wouldn't be needed on the downhill run. The approach to the turntable wouldn't have to be re-engineered as well.

Sure. UP would have been better off fixing 3985 instead of spending north of $10M to put a Big Boy in service. There's also better locomotives to build from scratch outside of the T-1. Why does Cass need to have a million locomotives? At the time, I'm sure the people that made decison had reasons to do so. It is what it is and there's no reason to keep Monday morning quarterbacking it. The fact is 1309 WILL run it WILL be painted in WM paint and it WILL pull their passenger trains. Everything else is immaterial, alot of what has been reported in the press has been blown way out of proportions. It appears they have a plan to move forward so see how it plays out.

Oh, and the diesels got added to 734 after it was already beat to death. The engine should have been retired several years before it actually was. Was it pulling the trains, or was it bad operating practice? I would say consider who was the CMO there for years. The issues 734 has tends to follow him on all the engines he works on. Just saying.

I was a passenger several times over the years and the diesels were on every time but one and that one time was actually the last year the 734 ran. I was pleasantly surprised and asked and the crew said it was because I was there on a lighter day and they had enough room to run around the train, they said the diesels were mostly there because of the length of the run around track.

Of course maybe the crew was lying to me and you know better.

I simply don't understand the complete lack of gratitude within the hobby.
I can honestly say I heard more rumblings from those who were angry that 3985 wasn't going back in steam instead if a Big Boy running for the first time since the 50s. the first time I heard that, I could hardly believe it. Then, I kept hearing it.
Same deal as 1309. I saw a lot of bandwidth devoted not to how amazing it is that 1309 was going back in steam as I read about how upset people were that 734 (a locomotive that had nothing special going for it other than just another 2-8-0) wasn't going to be restored again to steam.
My jaw hit the ground each time with a loud thud. I still don't get it.
As for people not caring what's on the head end, I would love to see numbers of riders from a normally steam powered operation to the times they had to use diesels. I think in many of these cases, the ones who showed up don't care what's on the head end, but lots of people never showed up knowing you didn't have steam. I volunteer at a tourist RR with a steam engine that's been down a while, and I do see people driving up and asking if our steam is running, then they leave once we confirmed it's a diesel up front.