Well, maybe the only one in the United States............... Britain and Ireland have a few......

The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania was established by an act of the PA state legislature in 1963.

When prototype P5 4700 was retired in 1965 RRMPA was still getting started. PRR had sold I1sa 4483 to WABCO to be displayed at WABCO's headquarters in Wilmerding Pa, visible from the PRR Main Line, where many an I1 had pulled and/or pushed freight trains for decades. When 4700 was retired it made sense to send it to St. Louis (well, Kirkwood) rather than an uncertain future at PRR's Northumberland roundhouse.

Now as to moving 4700 to Strasburg. A P5 is a heavy locomotive. The outside drivers have a 73000 lbs axleload each and the blind center driver has a 74000 lbs axleload. That's more than a live I1sa 2-10-0. The driving wheelbase is 20 feet, longer than most 4 driving axle steam locomotives. P5 and P5a motors were prone to derailing the center axle in curves and turnouts. 4700 does not have a boiler so it does not get lighter when it's out of service. I'm not sure 4700 has moved since it was placed where it is over 50 years ago.

Phil Mulligan

NOTE: The Western New York Railway Historical Society has since acquired PRR 4483 and moved the engine to Hamburg, NY, where it receives attention from the Society.

To fill in, NKP 757 had been held by NKP for display in Bellevue, Ohio. When the site availability became questionable, N&W, which had merged with NKP, donated 757 to RRMPA.

RRMPA is a museum of railroading in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. NKP's line to Buffalo crossed PA where the Commonwealth reaches out to Lake Erie on either side of Erie PA. Basically NKP crossed that part of Pennsylvania because it was between Cleveland and Buffalo.

757 was one of RRMPA's first locomotives, long before the PRR collection was conveyed to the Commonwealth by the trustees of Penn Central, but it was not relevant to the history of railroading in Pennsylvania. It would need restored and some 110 feet of display track.

The Mad River & NKP Railroad Museum asked RRMPA for the 757 and NS was willing to move it on its own wheels to Bellevue, which had been the hub of NKP's fast freight operation. RRMPA agreed to send the engine back to where it belonged. It went back to Ohio in February, 2019 via Strasburg Rail Road, Amtrak, and Norfolk Southern.

Phil Mulligan

https://www.madrivermuseum.org/757/about.html

Was the PRR electric collection stored at Northumberland with the steamers, or elsewhere?

Wesley

The DD1 and B1 were in service into the Penn Central years out of Sunnyside Yard NY and thus went directly to Strasburg. The P5 went directly to Kirkwood, probably from Enola.

The DD1 was the last PRR third rail motor that could work the wire train with the overhead power off and grounded. The B1's were the last real switchers they had in Penn Station NY.

They actually used LIRR MU cars to move the wire train after the DD1 left and until the dual modes arrived. PC did try a NYC T-motor but that did not work out. PC and AMTK switch Penn Station with road motors.

Phil Mulligan

The PRR class P5 is indeed a heavy locomotive, with a rigid set of drive wheels in the center. The following is adapted from an Autumn 2010 article about it in the PRRT&HS Keystone magazine by Tim Garner, and I helped him with it as I had worked at the museum from 1995 - 2005: #4700 is currently under cover in the Abbott Building, a three track shed. Getting the locomotive there was a challenge. The P5 was built to run on heavy rail. Its suspension was redesigned to reduce sidesway. Both of these factors caused problems when it came time to move the locomotive. It had derailed three times before getting into the museum, on April 16, 1966 in Indianapolis enroute to the area. A second derailment was on June 6, 1966 at the Alton & Southern where it was stored while there was a dispute about moving the museum to the Mississippi River in St. Louis or East St. Louis. The third was on July 24, 1969 while it was being pushed into the museum after it was decided against moving its location. Much of the track at the museum was built of donated light rail from the Missouri Pacific and other local sources as it was replaced. In the late 1990s the P5 was moved to the far east end of its track under the Abbott Building by blocking up the center driver so it would go through the switches instead of tearing them up. The center driver could fall off the rail head going through sharp turnouts in the museum trackage. This increased the weight on the other drivers. It would still be on the rails on straight or nearly straight track, so the extra weight on the other two drive axles would only be a concern for short distances. The track it was on was only 50 and 60 pounds per yard rail. A small front-end loader was being used to shove it just a short distance at a time. A loco could not be used as the track behind it was made unusable by its passage, fracturing or rolling over. The plan was to replace this light rail and rebuild the track after getting it to the west end. Eventually the P5 was a locomotive length from its present location. Some heavier rail was installed in front for its support. The locomotive was moved onto this rail where it remains. The track its movement destroyed was rebuilt with 90-pound rail for other exhibited pieces including the museum’s Amtrak GG1.

Moving it elsewhere will probably involve several more derailments, including several just getting it out of the museum itself.

Right you are, Ron.

A P5 does require heavy rail; also, the blind middle driver tire is wider than the flanged outside tires and does not tolerate self-guarding frogs (the blind driver will climb over the guard, not roll through) and may need an auxiliary rail next to the running rail ("Blind Driver Rail") to support the center axle when it follows the chord and goes inside the running rail in a turnout or sharp curve.

A GG1 has a driving axle load of 50500 lbs, much less than the 73000 lbs of a P5 (GG1 has twice as many driving axles) and no blind axles. Surprisingly the PRR people had to be hit on the head with a spike maul before they would test a NH EP-3 to see how well a 2-C+C-2 motor would ride.

All that said, the P5's, P5a's and the P5b had a 30-year career in through freight service and were replaced by new electrics (E44's) and not by diesels. PRR needed the acceleration of an electric in the congested NEC and the P5's delivered it. Four main tracks were not enough.

Phil Mulligan

Incidentally a P5a Modified (built after 5-1934 with a streamilined cab similar to a GG1) was 3000 lbs heavier on each driving axle.

The electric locomotive document is not up to date:

CSS&SB #802 is not 'owned by the B&O museum and on long term loan to Lake Shore Railway Historical Society.' #802 was purchased by Lake Shore in the very early 2000's after the term of a multi-year loan had expired.

Nomenclature--- CSS&SB called their three big electrics "800's" and not "Little Joes" -- that name was totally a Milwaukee RR name. From personal experience, the CSS&SB folks do not like their 800s referred to as Little Joes.

[Thank you -- RayG]

Send Frank Hicks your corrections!