Supe,

So far nothing said about B&M 3713. What is the story there?

Thanks,

Wesley

According to federalpay.org, the average salary of an NPS Park Ranger in 2018 was $70,992. Scranton is in the "Rest of USA" area for locality pay so Scranton pay will be somewhat less but that was a 2018 figure and there have been COLA raises since then. So between up and down that's probably as good a good ballpark figure as we can get.

Like any NPS Historical Site, Steamtown has certain obligations. These include Law Enforcement, a qualified Curator, Historian, Interpretive Rangers, Grounds Crew. Many of us use unpaid volunteers but both a professional Curator and Historian are very important to a professional NPS muesum.

So Steamtown is a different animal from the RR Museums we're used to.

Steamtown also has no entrance fee and thus no visitor income.

Phil Mulligan

"So far nothing said about B&M 3713. What is the story there?"

What I've heard is the relationship with the NRHS was severed for lack of an explicit fixed duration and work in the shop has ceased and there is to be no discussion of the locomotive or the project by employees.

I'm thinking that there needs to be a FOIA request to get the inside skinny.

Supe, I've just been told by a source I trust solidly that work is continuing on the 3713.

Perhaps we could get a current employee at Steamtown who is allowed to speak to the outside world to issue an official current 3713 status???

Just wondering. Thanks, Ross Rowland

I spoke to some employees the day I emptied my locker.

Or I should say I was told that they could not comment.

I know rumors fly high and long. I'd still like to file a FOIA request.

At terrible risk of me wading into the deep end of the pool with the big fishes...

I saw people working on 3713 during a visit or two over the winter. Looked like truck work to me. Not the cast of thousands needed to get it to boil water and blow the whistle anytime soon, but also not DOA.

3713 surely looks like a nice size choo for that railroad. Not too big, not to small.

As a very casual observer, I have to wonder if Steamtown's issues are not simply lack of direction. Whether that's inept management with no vision for the place (just send my paycheck and piss on the rest of it) or a typical government run venture where almost anyone could do it better.

I wonder out loud why we would piss away a seven figure amount of cash on a 4-8-8-4 paint job? how much closer would 3713 be if that money were spent there. Add a $900k from that Carreer that the Wyoming Oracle has pissed away on that coach. Where would 3713 be with another $2 million plus from those other two projects applied to its welfare? SOMEONE made those decisions. Perhaps hindsight is 20-20.

I saw and met good folks at Steamtown. Felt sorry for several in the situation that exists there. I saw a lot of promise not being recognized/realized.

"3713 surely looks like a nice size choo for that railroad. Not too big, not to small."

And therein lies a bit of the problem.

From a historical perspective, the 3713 is the best exemplar of the most common type of U.S passenger engine, no argument. But this engine was intended for fast speeds on easy grades.

So, from an operational perspective, not the best arrow in the quiver.

Consider this: a typical 80 inch-drivered engine produces peak power at about 50mph, give or take a few mph. Nobody is running tourist or heritage operations at anywhere near that speed and it’s decreased in the last quarter century in response to risk aversion.

Max speed on the Pocono main line to Moscow (as I recall it was more on the long flat part from Moscow to Gouldsboro/Tobyhanna) used to be 30mph, it was lowered to 25mph.

With a little thought, the tradeoff is obvious. You add 24 seconds per mile for each mile you are operating at maximum speed, on the 12 miles it’s a couple of minutes more each way. No recreational rider will complain; and going 25mph rather than 30 means a 30.6% reduction in the kinetic energy of the train. As we were frequently reminded by a former trainmaster; "we're not running the Broadway limited".

About six years ago, one of the now-departed engineers had a conversation with the former Superintendent, right about the time she announced that Steamtown needed “three of four” operational locomotives to provide a continuous steam experience to the visitor.

The engineer observed that in the modern litigious environment, it’s unlikely that operational speeds are going to much exceed 30mph-which was more a steam era freight train speed.

Given that fact-it made more sense to restore a freight engine than a passenger engine-and the obvious candidate-if a place to turn the engine could be arranged would be ICRR790.

She agreed that the idea made sense, but added “we have to get 3713 running first”.

True enough.

But here we are, six years later.

And 26 years later. Is it "ready to roll"?



Expecting a departure from a long-established history by a bureaucracy that isn’t noted for agility is a wild goose chase. To a certain extent, I agree with Ross, that the NPS is the wrong custodian for the site-but that’s not going to change because there's no successor-the PHMC isn’t going to assume responsibility and even if they wanted to, neither Lackawanna County or the city of Scranton has the capacity.

Where we differ is that I think the issue they have no way to develop people with the knowledge of steam and keep ‘em coming, especially in the next few years as the majority of the shop staff retires.

Whether my five independent sources that tell me the relationship with the NRHS is done and work is suspended will be validated by time-unless of course you want to “go in on” a FOIA request. I'll throw in 20 bucks.

I’m pretty sure both RBMN and GCRY hit those speeds regularly.

The IRM official track speed is 25, but hypothetically (and of course NEVER in practice :)) trains could safely do 60 mph.

I don’t disagree—3713 wasn’t the best choice for restoration of Steamtown’s collection—but there are still a few places where fast(ish) steam still runs. And I’ve seen the effect it has on people. Every guest I’ve taken on an open air car behind 425 from Jim Thorpe has remarked how amazing it was when we hit top speed.

If 425 is going 50, I'm sure it does sound fast-it's got 69 inch drivers.

Never been on GCRY, so I can't say and I don't see ride length and times that would allow an average speed calc.

Next time the R&N has an excursion; I guess I'll have to use a phone app-because now I'm curious.

Did the same thing, we hit 50 around MP 126 on a regular Jim Thorpe excursion. Wasn’t for very long, and my phone might’ve been inaccurate, but I don’t really care. It was very fun.

IIRC all of the track just purchased by the RBMN off of Carbon County is being brought to Class III standards, so 60 mph.

Just for fun let's be optimists and say that the many years of effort to eventually get the high stepping 3713 reborn will have proved a great investment when she leads the annual Steamtown celebration of steam train to Hoboken over the restored Lackawanna Cut-Off.

She'll be doing what she was built to do once she crosses the Delaware eastbound and stretches her long legs into a steady 70 mph romp across New Jersey.

Better act fast when the tickets go on sale as this will surely be a quick sell-out.

Onward & Upward. Ross Rowland

"Did the same thing, we hit 50 around MP 126 on a regular Jim Thorpe excursion. Wasn’t for very long, and my phone might’ve been inaccurate, but I don’t really care. It was very fun."

No doubt, never had a bad trip on that line.

Which brings us to another issue:

Reading and Northern has as endpoints Port Clinton, Reading Station, Jim Thorpe, Tamaqua Station, Coxton Yard..

425, the F's, RDC's, and progress on 2102..plus an occasional ride with everybody's favorite chunky little switcher, 113, Minersville Station.

The NRHS was responsible for more than the 3713. Volunteers have planned many special events over the years, and staffed the station stops. These events were primarily used as fundraisers for 3713 but added to the overall site experience in a big way. Some of the most dedicated and nicest people you could want to meet. Not a good relationship to terminate, although it’s not the first time Steamtown has thrown a rod. Probably retribution for the Railpace article. Sad.

Mr. Robert John Davis, can you speak on this?

"Some of the most dedicated and nicest people you could want to meet."

Indeed. This was a very active chapter, and as I recall they were the protagonists in the "Hopper Jet" excursion of May 2013.

They made Moscow a bit of a destination, but fewer excursions and declining ridership, especially after the mothballing of 3254 made their dedication even more obvious.

The annual slide show was always worth the price of admission.

It's not often you want to be wrong.

I really hope I'm being force fed an enormous plate of crow in a day or two.