I'm working on getting answers from people who actually know.

Stay tuned.

Here's what I've got so far. There are a few gaps to fill in so, this post may change, but the core information should be relatively stable.

The "GTW 6323B" Tender at IRM is from GTW 6318.
The spare tender accompanying GTW 6325 is from GTW 6314.

A quick summary of the post-retirement life of these two locomotives:

GTW 6323 was sold to Fred Crew in November 1961. Fred stored the engine at the Detroit Terminal Roundhouse, before Fred's estate sold it to Bob Johnson in August 1973. Bob continued to store the engine at the roundhouse until it was moved to IRM in August 1981.

GTW 6325 was put on outdoor display next to GTW’s depot in Battle Creek, Michigan in 1959. In the 1980s Brian Osmer started the restoration of GTW 6325 though this project eventually ground to a halt, and the City of Battle Creek sold the locomotive to Jerry Jacobson in 1993.

Now for the history of these tenders:

According to my source the following tenders were retained (and modified) for "water service" at the end of steam: 6314, 6318, 6320 and 6329. At some point all four were sold for scrap to Hymen-Michaels. Here is their disposition at that point (I'm going to guess late 70s):

-6314: Sold back to DT&I, renumberd as "DTI 99767", photographed in fresh paint on May 21, 1981. In 1985, Brian Osmer purchased this tender from DT&I for GTW 6325, with that tender going to Jerry Jacobson with 6325 in 1994, and then to the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

-6318: Sold to Bob Johnson. Its "water service" number was GTW 85451, and (I'm guessing) Hymen-Michaels gave it the reporting mark "HYM 85451". When Bob Johnson got it, he gave it the reporting mark RTJX 6323B (I'm guessing RTJX = Robert T. Johnson), and was stored in Maywood, IL (next to Chicago) for several years before being moved to IRM, (along with the former C&NW 3000-class tender "6323A") in August 1994, following Bob's death in March or April 1994.

-6320: Scrapped (with parts sold to Bob Johnson)

-6329: Scrapped (with parts sold to Bob Johnson)

I also found a photo of one of these tenders numbered GTW 85452 from 1974, which I suspect is either 6320 or 6329. I wonder if it could be 6329, since it was the second U-3-b (of the 4 we're talking about) to be removed from service (after 6318 which became 85451), if that had any influence on how GTW numbered them).

Coincidentally, these 4 engines were the first U-3-b's to be scrapped:

-6318: 3/59 (Tender became GTW 85451)
-6316: 7/59
-6329: 8/59
-6314: 9/59
-6320: 1/60

Technical Notes:

GTW's U-3-b tenders have two distinctive elements that distinguish them from other similar CNR/GTW tenders of the era.

The first is the design of stoker engine condenser, which on these engines consists of a long radiator mounted just under the running boards on both sides of the tender. Of course the CN U-4-a and GTW U-4-b class also used this design.

On other engines, such as the CN U-2-g, U-2-h Northerns and U-1-f Mountains, the piping for the stoker engine radiator emerges from the back of the coal bunker and runs down the right side of the tender to a condenser box. On the U-2-e class (6167), a series of pipes emerges from the edge of the stoker compartment door, runs back to the tender, with an exhaust pipe running up to the running boards, forwards to the coal bunker, and has an exhaust pipe there.

The second notable feature was the subsequent application of much taller handrail stanchions along the coal bunker, replacing the standard lower design they came from the factory with. This was requested by the unions in the early 1950s and was subsequently applied to most of the U-3-b's and all of the U-4-b's as well. I'll bet the crews appreciated having higher handrails when walking on that narrow bit of running board.

GTW 6318 seems to have missed out on this modification, as evidenced by the "GTW 6323B" tender and service photos of GTW 6318.

Photos:

GTW/HYM 85451/RTJX 6323B, IRM, Union, Illinois

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=5566035

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=5181302

GTW 85452, Griffith, IN, November 22, 1974

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1891236

DTI 99767, Lima, Ohio, May 21, 1981

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/722649/

Internet Sources:

http://trainweb.org/j.dimech/roster/484ros.html#U-3-b

https://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/ima ... -NS-NL.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45931

With that out of the way, can any of you dig up photos of GTW 6314, 6318, the tender when it was on the DT&I and (additional) photos of both tenders later in life (anyone got photos of the tender at the Age of Steam Roundhouse?)

I have a photo from Railpics on my computer of 6314’s tender fresh out of the paint shop on the DT&I will try to post when I get home. Made sure to save it because I found it in the way back of the website and have no way remembering keywords to find the link.

Edit: Never-mind I found it: https://www.railpictures.net/photo/722649/

Here's a question, that rectangular former C&NW tender currently marked "6323A"... does it have any connection with the actual GTW 6323 (I'm talking in preservation, of course), was this tender acquired for use with GTW 6323?

If not, why was it given the number 6323A?

Greetings:

A couple of comments and an offer...

Yes, Bob Johnson and I were friends. I helped him get 6323 ready to move out of the remains of the Detroit Terminal roundhouse. He and I took turns riding 6323 on it's trip to IRM. Bob was far more than instrumental in getting 6323 and the rest of his GTW equipment inside storage at IRM: he PAID for it. The IRM policy is that someone has to pay for track space (by the foot) for any equipment brought onto the property (read: by Bob). Inside storage is also PAID for, in this case by Bob. In addition to 6323 and 1951 his collection included a coach (formerly a Parlor car, an RPO and a wood caboose).

Tender 6323B was stored for many years in Maywood, IL, not far from where Bob lived. I don't remember if he owned the former C&NW tender now numbered 6323A, however I'll find out.

Joe6167: I am currently doing some volunteer work at IRM. Yesterday, I took a number of photos of the 6323B tender, including the top. If these would be of help to you, PM me an email address to which to send them.

Be well & stay safe,
J.David

Thanks!

Here's another question:

Don McQueen's CN Steam book (Volume 7) states:

"GTW6323 was acquired for preservation in November 1961 by Fred Crew's Die Casting Corporation. Robert Johnson purchased the steamer in August 1981 and put it on display at the Illinois Railway Museum. It's tender was renumbered by IRM in July 1994 from (GTW) HYM85451 to 6323B, when the unidentified U-3-b tender which came with the steamer in 1981 was replaced".

Can you make any sense of this?

Greetings:

Nick Kallas, Executive Director of Illinois Railway Museum and former General Manager, tells me that Bob owned the former C&NW tender and had it stored at Maywood with the spare Vanderbilt tender. The C&NW tender was purchased for future use as a water car on fan trips (which never occurred). Both tenders arrived at IRM at the same time, after the 6323 (with the same tender it has today) arrived.

With all due respect to Don McQueen's book, his statement is totally without factual basis: the tender behind 6323 today is the same tender it arrived at IRM with, which is the same tender that it operated with at the end of it's operating career on the Grand Trunk Western.

J.David

Thank you guys for finally putting my question to rest. I could never figure out who owned what or what each marking/piece of info i was looking at meant and needed a bit more help if i was going to find out the origins of 6323B. Now that I know, I owe my utmost gratitude to you and thank you for your efforts. as for this thread I will definately be archiving information posted here to create a WIP GTW Steam Era equipment list i am looking at doing in the future since I feel not enough of the GTW's history has been preserved such as old locations of stations, sevicing shops, and yards; older equipment, railroad stories and quotes etc. Again, thank you for your work and stories about experiences with 6323, 6323B, Robert Johnson, and other subjects.

I made some updates to my post.

One interesting note: the higher hand rails on the U-3-b and U-4-b tenders were requested by the union.

Interesting to see that kind of dynamic play out.