"It was very entertaining and brightened my day."

So you think the pandemic is a joke?

As Ed K responded to Mr. Mitchell, the reason we submit to authorities is because we live in a society and by extension, should do nothing without government or authoritative consent.

Dave responds better in the implicit assertion that if we were just supine enough would could realize this:

"it's only in looking beyond the self and towards creating masses actively expressing consensus that can solve large problems based on a dedication towards society rather than simply self."

Imagine if we just understood that our common well-being was in mass expression of consensus. Now since consensus must be defined, the authorities must be free to define the goals and objectives we must obey.

Imagine a society where we dispense with differentiating and divisive things like titles, and address each other as "citizen". A step further would be to dispense with wasteful exercises in atomistic individualism and sexism that come with attire, and we adopted a dress of say, plain gray tunics. And what if we could dispense with the futility of voting and make the highest form of civic engagement to assemble in halls and stadiums in order that our leaders can articulate our common ambitions, something that we can not only affirm with a resounding verbal response but a conspicuous salute or gesture-perhaps extending our arms in the air-and after this, we can be free to go about reporting those that resist consensus.


I think however Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes said it best in Buck v. Bell 274 U.S. 200 (1927)

"We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence."

"The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

In recent times, we have found that benevolent deception is the best way to conform the individual to the enlightened view most expedient. People resist the direction of their superiors, even if it is to their betterment. This view was expressed by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein in Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness.

But this is an emergency, and we cannot afford the luxury of having individuals make decisions. The truth is most people are the sort of imbeciles whose detriments to society Holmes wanted to mitigate. (If you don't understand this, just trust me, I have an advanced degree and government experience).

If the state can ask the best to forego their lives, it can ask the peculiar to forego their odd affinities.

Of course we have not begun to explore whether Christmas trains are objectionable to disadvantaged communities in that they are Eurocentric.

I see no consent from the authorities for Christmas Trains. Now I would think it better if trains operated for the express purpose of authentic transportation be accredited to operate, and those run only for amusement or recreation banned. However we really should be asking ourselves in this crisis "WWGWUTD". (What Would Government Want Us To DO). I may have this inscribed on a bracelet to improve my own compliance.

It seems to me that the above responses of "superheater" will have to be banned in the future, for the same reason that April Fool's posts got banned here:

They are too scarily close to what could REALLY be said by other people (and probably is), and can easily be mistaken for real posts, and not devastatingly pointed satire.

He had me fooled! I certainly know a few people who think like this. It is chilling to think that anyone would actually think this way.

"But this is an emergency, and we cannot afford the luxury of having individuals make decisions. The truth is most people are the sort of imbeciles whose detriments to society Holmes wanted to mitigate. (If you don't understand this, just trust me, I have an advanced degree and government experience)."

OK enough satire. Lets stop this thread from spiraling into another covid pissing match. Anyone have anything Christmas train related to discuss?

Messers. Mitchell and Rowland: How many threads are you going to ruin with your off-topic bullshit?
When has a moderator posting off-topic bullshit ever stopped a thread from spiraling the wrong way?

Rick, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are not capable of moderating. Please resign.

I had a good laugh at this as it reminded me of the Seinfeld episode “The Chinese Restaurant” in which a frustrated George Costanza yells “You know, we’re living in a society! We’re supposed to act in a civilized way!”

How many rail preservation ventures have failed or been largely derailed because the preservation group in question could not get along with neighbors or the local political class? On the other hand, look at what happened at ITM. Despite all the doom and gloom when the initial Order came down, groups who acted professionally and cooperatively with the City were able to get a lot of good equipment out of Noblesville.

As far as Christmas trains, without the current federal COVID-related regulations, this would be a local issue or at least one that is addressed at the state level under each state's police power to protect the health, welfare, and safety of its citizenry.

I know someone who was involved with the ticket selling for his museum's Christmas ride. The calls they received regarding COVID were split almost evenly between "I'm not getting on the train if I have to wear a mask" and "I'm not getting on the train if there are people on it not wearing masks". So, beside the practical issue of how to enforce the federal mandate with regards to the guests, the bigger issues are (1) how does one market these rides to a highly polarized and agitated public and (2) how does one provide the service to these polarized and agitated customers in a way that leaves more than 50% of them happy and satisfied?

All this without a brawl on the train.

For the record, I'M NOT the one who proposed that the operation of a special event on private or semi-public property needed to be approved by a local health department. And, to be honest, I've yet to get an honest, reasoned answer to my responding question.

Why have you not included Mr. Heavenrich in your diatribe?

"Cars legally defined as open cars where one may ride maskless, this way! Closed cars where masks are required, that way!"

Too cold, or no cars with opening windows on your RR?

"Federal regulations under which our railroad operates mandates that all passengers wear masks! Sorry about that, folks!"

Chris,

You run the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum, not RYPN, but you have on a regular basis sent me messages telling me how to run this forum. How about you run your forum and we will run this one and we will respect each other to keep our noses out of the others business. I have never sent you nitpicky messages telling you how to run the NGDF because it is not my place to do so. But you apparently think it is your calling to be the rail forum busybody. It is not welcome here at all.

BTW as the apparent GURU of forum moderation, you should at least know that the stray off topic post is vastly different than multiple posts in a thread veering it off topic and into a new direction.

I am curious.

Given that this was the second sentence of the initiating post:

" I just wonder what you are thinking about on a couple of issues in light of Covid."

Why were Messers Rowlands and Mr. Mitchell's responses "off-topic b*llshit" but not these responses?

“Have you run your plans by your local public health department and gotten their "buy in"?”

“Because we live in a society.”

“Maybe the health department should be thought of as a resource rather than an adversary?”

“Most societal problems are bigger than an individual can solve alone. The self interest among authority figures you cite is unfortunately real, but it's just how certain people with a very active sense of ego decide to express their self interest - claiming to be the only person who can individually solve larger problems, etc...... it's only in looking beyond the self and towards creating masses actively expressing consensus that can solve large problems based on a dedication towards society rather than simply self. Consider the Greek perspective of the responsibilities required to act as a citizen in a society (as well as the rewards) required for a Democratic Republic to be a practical form of government. I think we've lost this understanding at the altar of our National mythology.”


The truth is you don't want a moderator, you want a censor.

I note the following Interchange guidelines:

"challenging posters to “put up or shut up” attempts to chill discussions; and personal, ad hominem, attacks on other posters ("flaming") are all prohibited."


" No profanity. There will be zero tolerance for this, and posts containing profanity will be deleted on sight.

I believe you violated both rules with one post.

My position is that your refusal to follow RYPN's Interchange Guidelines is killing the forum and harming the heritage rail industry.

The Interchange Guidelines state that the forum is for exchanging relevant, fact-based, information. It used to be that, but your lack of moderation has allowed RYPN to become a place where the same handful of drunks keep posting potshots and lashing out at imagined slights.

Actions speak louder than words. You don't have to listen to my words, but please consider the actions of former RYPN users -- why do you think multiple industry professionals with professional reputations to protect have all stopped posting here? Why do you suppose another poster felt it necessary to warn that several RYPN posters reflect poorly on the organizations those posters are associated with? Do you really think it is ok that organizations are likely losing donations and other support because of the crap you allow to be posted here on RYPN?

RYPN is actively harming the heritage rail industry. Please stop it or shutdown the board or take it private so that search engines will not index posts. I think you should also stop using the "Railway Preservation News" name.

"My position is that your refusal to follow RYPN's Interchange Guidelines is killing the forum and harming the heritage rail industry."

So says the guy that violated two rules in one post.

"The Interchange Guidelines state that the forum is for exchanging relevant, fact-based, information. It used to be that, but your lack of moderation has allowed RYPN to become a place where the same handful of drunks keep posting potshots and lashing out at imagined slights."

Second post complaining about the moderator and adds a flame to prove the hypocrisy. This forum has always had poorly informed posters who, to paraphrase Winston Churchill cannot abide being thought a fool, so they speak and remove all doubt. If the moderation (censorship) was as aggressive as you apparently desire, your post containing the profanity would have been removed on site. Some of us have been around a long time and remember stuff like "we're a non-profit, we have to spend all of our money by the end of the year".

"Actions speak louder than words. You don't have to listen to my words, but please consider the actions of former RYPN users -- why do you think multiple industry professionals with professional reputations to protect have all stopped posting here?"

A classic example of "begging the question". The truth of the matter is that there is the growth of alternate fora, i.e., Facebook or Meta or whatever it is at the moment and the growing realization that there is no benefit and great potential harm in posting, should some intrepid sleuth dig up a ten year old post or tweet that fails to comply with some novel new social requirement fueled by an intolerant and unforgiving mob that demands prostration. The truth is if there's some exodus, you have only private speculation to offer, no factual evidence.

"Why do you suppose another poster felt it necessary to warn that several RYPN posters reflect poorly on the organizations those posters are associated with?"

Do you think it's possible you are one of those posters? I know I'm not particularly inclined to hypocrisy, melodrama or profanity and based on your posts, I don't think I'd be interested in the forum you moderate.

"Do you really think it is ok that organizations are likely losing donations and other support because of the crap you allow to be posted here on RYPN?"

On what basis do you claim that "organizations are likely losing donations and other support because of the crap (seriously, what is with the potty mouth?) you allow to be posted here on RYPN?"

What I hear from people in the greater tax-exempt charitable sphere is that there is a growing fear that increasing prices sand shortages, especially following the disruptions of 2020, are going to cause people to reduce donations as they stock up on cash for precautionary reasons.

"RYPN is actively harming the heritage rail industry. Please stop it or shutdown the board or take it private so that search engines will not index posts. "

Once again, an assertion made with out evidence (i.e., not factual). Of course, the proper response to unsatisfied appeals would be to depart, not be a part of what you consider to be a "problem". That's too bad, because I seem to recall you used to offer interesting posts.

"I think you should also stop using the "Railway Preservation News" name."

Based on what? There's nothing special about it. If as you assert, this is so injurious to the cause (and please get it right, there is no heritage rail "industry", it is an advocation outside a few places such as Strasburg) and just as a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, then changing the name would do nothing about the "odor".

My apologies up front for posting on topic.

I'm pleased to report that our advance sales for the Santa trains are very strong and it looks like we'll have a very good year.

I hope the rest of the industry is also experiencing strong sales.

Thanks, Ross Rowland

And then you write the next two paragraphs taking those very potshots and lashing out at your own imagined slights.



This is a free and open forum. I tend to be on the side of free speech and permit our members to talk about what concerns them. RYPN is defined by our members on a daily basis by what is posted and discussed. If there is not enough good content, start a new thread. Start talking about something related to rail preservation and help guide the conversation. The same goes for these anonymous industry professionals, even if they do exist.

Free speech is under assault everywhere and some would like to remove the ability for people to speak freely. I am not such a person. Human interactions and discussions are often messy. My role as moderator is not to be the censor nor is it to be a dictator, but someone who helps guide discussions and even participate. Sometimes that means closing off discussion when things get woefully off topic but I take that as a last resort.



I think you overestimate the importance of this forum in the broader scheme of things. For the most part this forum is visited by people engaged in the industry as well as some railfans, but the vast majority of people who are likely to support various rail museums are not going to visit this site and even if some did, will not know the names of members (many post under aliases) to the point where they can link them to an organization, and then decide that a person exercising their right of free speech is enough to cause them to cease supporting the organization. To believe that requires several leaps of faith.

And now I am curious. What topics of discussion do you think are so verboten that their mere presence is harming the heritage rail industry? Name them. Because I have no freaking idea what has gotten you so upset and we need to decide if there is actually a problem here or if it is you.

Continuing our off-topic discussion, one main difference between RyPn and NGDF is that if you suggested that the moderator of the later should resign, a moderator would delete the thread and ban you for life. Dictators often believe they know best and don't believe in a self-governing body. I, for one, appreciate having a voice on this forum and also appreciate the even-keeled approach to moderation.

The volunteers and management had originally voted not to have Christmas trains this year. Simply because we felt we couldn't provide an experience with Santa or singing or hot chocolate etc that the public would enjoy and feel was worth their time and money. And we are still social distancing and we haven't reopened the gift shop, either.

Now, the main street merchants are going all out for a 1950's Christmas experience this year. We are only a block off main street and we want to support the merchants and the community. So we are going to just decorate and play recorded music. The merchants are going to have a Santa, anyway. We're going to approach some merchants about coupons that we could pass out to our passengers. That's it.