"gauges faces were smashed".

So how do you safely operate a locomotive in this alleged condition?

Fixed that for you. Blame Auto-Correct, everyone else does.

There's a vast difference, however. Selectrics were produced by the hundreds of thousands, take up a LOT of space even compared to the manuals they replaced, are freakin' heavy (I've seen them advertised at flea markets as "Boat Anchors"!), and need typewriter ribbon to function as well as 110/120 volt AC.

Ironically, thanks in large part to the Internet, one can STILL get replacement ribbons for most Selectric models, unlike the harder-to-procure ribbons for the lighter, more versatile daisy-wheel typewriters that replaced the ball-element Selectrics a decade or two later (1970s-1980s).

With thanks to all the responders, I consider the latter-day account of the 2933 at Selkirk as the most likely story of the engine described to me back in the early 1960s.

From this, I also believe it was most likely that 5433, following its appearance for New York City's 300th, returned to anonymity and the same fate as the others of her class.

I was talking more about the actual last steam passenger train on the Pemberton Branch in November, 1957. The Pemberton Branch was PRR, not PRSL.

As an aside, Reading Company offered G-3 Pacific 219 to the City of Reading, which turned it down in 1957. 219 was the last new locomotive built at Reading Shops.

Phil Mulligan

Broken gages? A very simple way to refuse to take an engine.
It's pretty clear that NYC steam was all gone east of Buffalo in Fall 1953. Recollections of railfans 65 years later aren't necessarily gospel.

NYC was fighting for its life in the 1955-1960 period. Preserving one or a few steam locomotives wasn't even close to a priority. Meeting the payroll was more important.

By the early 1950s, 95% of railroads couldn't get rid of the things fast enough, and 99% of on-line communities were not sad to see them go. A LOT of engines were offered for display (like that RDG 219) and flatly turned down by towns and cities. 5-6 years later, it was different, they decided the donation was now wanted, but the locomotives were long gone.

Let's remember that even during a time when railroads were more of a retail operation (passenger trains, local freight services, etc) and had some awareness of public image and public relations, smoky old locomotives weren't what they wanted to be known for.

America in the 1950s was firmly focused on "modern"-- tear down those Victorian architectural monstrosities! Build highways! Be modern and up to date! Historic preservation (with a few exceptions) really wasn't a "thing" until the mid-1960s.

Howard P.

My Pop (Fireman/Engineer NYCRR 1941 - Conrail 1989) talked about moving the Niagara's around the engine terminal in Buffalo NY. They were a real pain, you had to spot them within about +/- 1 foot to get them on the turntable. Often times it took several move ahead / backup attempts to fit them on the turntable. Easy to stop a locomotive, more challenging to "park" it in a spot that only allows 1 foot of error.

Never mentioned any "broken gauges". But I would not be surprised if some of the worker bees "beat the cr_p" out of the steamers to try and get rid of them sooner...

Although very loved these days the crews that had to operate the steamers really appreciated the diesels for their ease of operation and general "nicer work environment".

One time my Pop was up on the tender tank taking on water, when he finished and was holding the water spout the hogger moved the engine ahead without warning and Pop was stuck dangling from the water spout with no tender underneath him. Had to yell several expletives to the hogger; "Backup Now You SOB"....

At that time firemen with more seniority were known to call in and ask if their regular train was using Diesel or Steam power that day and "Mark Off" if their regular run was assigned a Steamer, thus the runs fell to the men on the "Extra List" (or "Extra Board"), like my Pop at that time (1950's).



In fact many communities had "Smoke Inspectors"/"Smoke Police" that were tasked with following the steam locomotives around and making sure that they were not making too much "smoke/soot". My Pop talked about a particularly zealous "Smoke Inspector" in Niagara Falls NY that would "pace" the train along an adjoining highway and try to find any excuse to "ticket" the NYCRR for too much smoke. Like an early version of the EPA without the steroids....

Damaging freight steamers was a little short sided. It didn't take long for the railroads to start running longer, less frequent trains with diesels. Fewer crew starts as they say now.

I worked with a guy that went to work as a fireman on the IC in 1948. By 1956, he quit because he couldn't make enough to support his family.

I recently showed someone the difference in rail employment between "then and now."

In 1907, following the death of Alexander Cassatt and the formal corporate takeover of one low-grade rail line on paper (they had been operating it as their since its construction), the PRR shifted all through traffic off of one through rail line with steep grades at each end and detoured it to the low-grade line. This amounted to a thousand or so cars a day, usually handled in 30-40 (1907-era) car trains, 40-70 trains a day total with doubleheaded "Class R" (later H3, like PRR 1187 in the RR Museum of Pa.) Consolidations and maybe a pusher to get out of town at each end. (To be fair, the "low-grade line" also often needed a pusher to get out of town on the south end of the line.) The same historian recounted an instance the previous year of "eleven freights west in intervals of fifteen minutes."

According to a local rail historian at the time, in one week in March 1907 the move resulted in the layoffs of ninety trainmen and nineteen block operators as four block stations closed and five more made day offices. And this was with a nearby major yard and shops. It's safe to presume some of them relocated to the vicinity of the new line, but not all.

Today, the technology exists for the equivalent amount of tonnage to be handled by perhaps six crew members--ten or twelve, if we count support crews in yards, dispatchers, etc., and maybe sixteen if we want shorter, safer trains. But the railroads aren't shipping anthracite to Pittsburgh steel mills anymore.

And I doubt anyone today still wants to spend twenty years shoveling coal at random shift hours, no matter how well it would pay.

You notice the year 1957 appears for many last steam runs. There was a sharp recession from late 1957 to mid 1958.

NKP was apparently planning to operate some 2-8-4's but as traffic dropped they cancelled the plan.

B&O had schedulled a farewell to steam trip for early 1958, but dropped its last fire in 1957. The engine would still be servicable so they ran the trip in May, 1958 and it was indeed B&O's last steam trip.

Reading last used its T-1's in "the coal trade" out of Gordon in 1957.

PRR, which hah to borrow steam power in 1956, made its last steam trip in Feb. 1958 (an I1sa from Cresson to East Altoona with coal) but B6sb 0-6-0 5244 was leased to Union Transportation of New Egypt, New Jersey until July 1959.

Phil Mulligan

From a combination of PRR and historical accounts:

11-27-1957 [Christopher Baer has 11-25, Mark Reutter has 11-27] What is generally regarded as the very last revenue steam operation on the PRR proper occurs this evening as I1sa 2-10-0 4271 pulls a 50-car coal train from Cresson to Altoona and then ties down late at night. Earlier on the 25th, according to later PRR documents, a pair of L1s Mikados, 1365 and 370, also hauled a mixed freight from Philipston to Renovo, Pa.
There was a later account of a PRR L1s supposedly departing Renovo, Pa. dragging another retired steamer behind it to either Altoona or Northumberland in December 1957.

Getting back to the subject of NYC steam, the Niagaras were virtually new, all roller bearing, and by some accounts, more efficient than a trio of early GP7's in MU. Their single flaw was the care required to maintain all steam power. I've never understood why the order for the big 4-8-4's was sent through or completed, seeing how the Diesel invasion was well underway when they arrived.

There remains another story that the Smithsonian had requested a Hudson, but Perlman turned them down flat and order all those retired as having the driver spokes cut out so none could be saved. I've seen pictures of at least one destroyed in this manner, so is it true?

I'm going with the "wishful thinking" ego-stroking.

1) I've seen photos of steamers in the "breaker's yards" with spokes cut in the USA, Britain, France, and other countries. It appears to be a common/universal scrapping technique once the loco isn't going anywhere else. I know at least one notable UK steamer was brought back from the dead even with cut spokes.

2) As petty and tyrannical as Perlman was depicted as in later accounts, don't you think the CEO of a major corporation has better things to do than to micromanage the disposition of the company's scrap assets? We're not talking computer hard drives or secret strategy/accounting documents, after all.

I believe Sandy has "got it right", for these reasons...

NYC's steam power, sold for scrap, required movement off-line to the scrappers' facilities. It wouldn't have been possible to safely move any engine, with cut spokes. It was generally deemed to be an uneconomic course, to scrap engines with NYC's own forces (which under most applicable labor agreements was required for equipment scrapped on NYC property). Other equipment that had value for re-use was sent to NYC's Reclamation Facility at Ashtabula, OH to be "parted out".

There WAS an exception, however, where Perlman spoke to the handling of retired steam power...

Wherever possible, locomotive bells (complete with base and yoke) were stripped and held in Collinwood, OH for donation to Churches and Missions, mostly in Mexico.

Based upon a tip from a retired NYC Manager in 1965, at a point when the supply of stored bells was almost gone, and for a payment of $50, NYC sold one of the remaining bells to me; they shipped it for pickup at Harmon.

As much as NYC has cultivated its image as the "Road to the Future", by 1965 its business and labor environment was still marginal, at best. Notwithstanding the vestiges of past wealth, NYC's management was engaged in a survival effort. For this reason, NYC didn't see a sufficient reason to donate equipment or property, except in the most unusual - and rare - circumstances.

Railfan opinion notwithstanding, the unspoken and tragic fact was, they were always willing to sell equipment. Sadly, by the time Nelson Blount was assembling his collection, the Hudsons and Niagaras were long gone.

There is another interesting thing, that may tie into this somewhere.

In the Northern New Jersey area, along the route of the ex-West Shore, there are a great many churches and similar faciiities that have 'gongs' outside that are clearly made from cut driver tires. These were said to have been donations from the time of dieselization, when the steam power was no longer needed.

I always accumed that these were removed 'in the course of shpping', when past the wear limit... but it never occurred to me to actually check by eye and with a gauge if that were so, or if the tires were removed from 'serviceable' engines being scrapped. That NYC would donate these so lavishly implies there was some cost-effectiveness in providing them to that area (which appears to be far from the named locations that the NYC power was being scrapped).

I cannot speak about Pearlman, but when interviewing Clarence Pond, General Superintendent of Motive Power for N&W (1953-1966), about 1980, I asked him about Stuart Saunders ordering all steam being donated to "make sure it never could be run again." Pond said it was true, in a meeting that Saunders wanted very little given away, but knew nothing about mechanical aspects of what to do, but he did not want to see any N&W steam power being used on "his" railroad, so Pond and the other came up with the idea of cutting the firebox sheets. Which indeed was done on several engines. The practice was not consistent, as you say, the President did not have time to micro manage.

I do have a copy of a letter, dated late 1959 sent to Pond, presumed to be from Bob Claytor, that included a sentence on the nature of "If plans develop to make 611 forever inoperable, by say, cutting the firebox, I'd appreciate that I be informed before anything is done." Meaning he'd stick his neck out if forced to. Thankfully, Saunders had to focus on mergers, then getting his dream job of President of the Pennsy.

Best
Ken Miller