Thanks for the additional information Kurt. Definitely looking forward to your W&C article in the MILEPOST.

BTW, my post yesterday was done strickly from memory (NO CRIB NOTES!), so forgive any errors (hopefully minor) plus the usual typos, etc.

> I believe an
> ex-PRR wooden cabin car also still resides
> at Newfoundland.
Yes, The MCC's former PRR cabin car (their Newfoundland gift shop) is there with the coach. I believe the person that owns the station may own these cars now.

> The W&C
[Kurt] Weren't some of the same folks from Steam Trains Inc. (original operator of the New Hope & Ivyland) involved with the W&C?

> The W&C also owned an ex-NYC wooden
> caboose used as a rest room facility
Funny, the Morris County Central did the same thing... must be something about NYC cabooses!

> The W&C also owned ex-RDG camelback
> tender No. 90961 which was used in fire
> fighting service on the Reading and served
> as a water canteen for No. 37.
[Kurt or Tom G] Did the RDG camelback tender go to the W&W? Isn't the W&W aux tender (formerly used behind 3 and 37) a different car (thinking ex-C&O)?

[ref., disposition of an ex-PRR 4-wheel caboose once at the CP&W]
> I don't think so. The wooden 4-wheel bobber
> you might be thinking of is ex-Ma & Pa
> No. 2003 which Red Caboose Lodge used to
> have close to the Strasburg tracks at the
> edge of their parking lot. This caboose was
> sold in 4/1992 to the M&P Preservation
> Society in Muddy Creek Forks, Pa.
Not that long ago someone on one of these boards mentioned where the PRR caboose from the CP&W went--I just forget who mentioned it and where they said it went! I thought (wrongly) that it might have been the one once at the Red Caboose Motel. Anyone out there hiding an ex-Pennsy bobber cabin car?

> Cornell also had ex-PRR doddlebug No. 4666
> stored here which later went to the NH&I
> and BR&W.
Was running out of time yesterday... so had to cut the Penn-View Mountain roster short!
I had heard that Sloan Cornell once had TWO former PRR doodlebugs (4666 and another "unknown" car) at the PVM RR. BTW, 4666 didn't operate at the PVM RR and it was soon sold off to Ray Kennedy, who stored it on the Arcade & Attica RR in NY. 4666 went to the NH&I and later (in 1975) to the BR&W under the care of Hugh Jenkins. The BR&W bought the car outright in 1978 and for years it covered the Ringoes-Lambertville run. Today 4666 is stored at Ringoes under private ownership.

Cornell's PVM RR used a former NY wooden "EL" car as a coach, along with a couple "homebuilt" open cars and two former PRR wooden cabin cars. Most of this stuff moved behind 2-8-0 76 (under steam) and Cornell's Baldwin diesel switcher from Blairsvile to Gettysburg during the mid 70's. He even hauled his PVM RR metal enginehouse (taken apart and loaded in gondolas) with him! After relocating to Gettysburg, Cornell acquired "more substantial" passenger stock in the form of a DL&W Boonton combine and Erie Stillwell coaches bought from the Livonia Lakeville & Avon RR--along with former H&BTM 2-8-0 38--when that NY shortline decided to get out of the tourist RR business.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Didn't the Huntingdon & Broad Top # 38 originally come from Rail City in Sandy Pond NY. I don't belive the locomotive ever operated there due the curves being to sharp on the circle of track that Dr. Groman had installed there at his early museum.

Also, is the NYC El car still in existence somewhere?

Joel

> Cornell's PVM RR used a former NY wooden
> "EL" car as a coach, along with a
> couple "homebuilt" open cars and
> two former PRR wooden cabin cars. Most of
> this stuff moved behind 2-8-0 76 (under
> steam) and Cornell's Baldwin diesel switcher
> from Blairsvile to Gettysburg during the mid
> 70's. He even hauled his PVM RR metal
> enginehouse (taken apart and loaded in
> gondolas) with him! After relocating to
> Gettysburg, Cornell acquired "more
> substantial" passenger stock in the
> form of a DL&W Boonton combine and Erie
> Stillwell coaches bought from the Livonia
> Lakeville & Avon RR--along with former
> H&BTM 2-8-0 38--when that NY shortline
> decided to get out of the tourist RR
> business.

> Regards,
> Jim Robinson


Rockhill Trolley Museum
jdstrolley@enter.net

> Also, is the NYC El car still in existence
> somewhere?

I know I saw/photographed that thing outside both the old and the new Gettysburg RR enginehouse over the years, but I haven't seen it since the Cornell era ended at Gettysburg. My question is, why isn't it in the hands of some NY transit buffs? Or is it something every trolley museum north of NYC has six of?



lner4472@bcpl.net

> I know I saw/photographed that thing outside
> both the old and the new Gettysburg RR
> enginehouse over the years, but I haven't
> seen it since the Cornell era ended at
> Gettysburg. My question is, why isn't it in
> the hands of some NY transit buffs? Or is it
> something every trolley museum north of NYC
> has six of?

That NYC "L" car is Manhattan Elevated #782, built by Gilbert in 1887. After it left the Gettysburg Railroad it was moved to the Knox & Kane Railroad in Marienville PA, where it is currently stored (privately owned, I believe). It's an extremely old car and cars of this type are pretty rare, even in trolley museums, however it was VERY heavily modified from its condition on the NY "L" and so was of little historical interest to the northeastern trolley museums.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars
fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

That Elevated car is a rare jewel! There are a couple of them in the collection of the Shoreline Museum in Brandford and we have a pair (Gilbert Car, 1887) that came out for service in Richmond,CA in WWII at the Western Railway Museum.But they are the only cars from the steam and early era electric in New York, that I know about.

Is it still in Gettysburg? Inside?

Ted Miles



ted_miles@nps.gov

> [ref., disposition of an ex-PRR 4-wheel
> caboose once at the CP&W]
> Not that long ago someone on one of these
> boards mentioned where the PRR caboose from
> the CP&W went--I just forget who
> mentioned it and where they said it went! I
> thought (wrongly) that it might have been
> the one once at the Red Caboose Motel.
> Anyone out there hiding an ex-Pennsy bobber
> cabin car?

I was living in Bloomsburg at the time the CP&W equipment was scrapped or sold. If memory serves me, the 4-wheel ex-PRR caboose went to a private party in New Jersey or perhaps New York. I remember they had to saw off the cupola to make the clearances on I-80. I stood by as the local scrapper cut up the "Cape Charles," a sweet little office car that was still essentially intact as bought from the PRR. There was even a copy of "Baldwin Magazine" in one of the desk drawers and bottles of petrified Coca-Cola in the refrigerator. As a newly married recent college graduate making $6,600, there was no way I could save the car, much as I wanted to. I did salvage a Raymond Loewy-designed wastebasket from the car.

There were some other interesting gems at the CP&W, including two or three of the RDG's wooden cocoa bean hopper cars, a wooden DL&W caboose and a steam crane. All were scrapped on the spot. The inside of the depot contained a number of original LV, PRR and Reading (P&R) travel posters from the late 19th century.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

Jim,

A few answers to your questions:

> [Kurt] Weren't some of the same folks from
> Steam Trains Inc. (original operator of the
> New Hope & Ivyland) involved with the
> W&C?
Yes. The founder/President of the W&C was also the founder of Steam Trains, Inc. This individual left the NH&I project in late 1965 to form the W&C. I won't divulge any more than that because his entire story will be told in my forthcoming NH&I book (yes I am working on three book projects right now simulataneously while working full-time at the RR Museum and attending grad school-ugh!!)I know of at least one person who reads this board who is also contemplating an NH&I book, so I guard my research and my sources carefully!

> [Kurt] Did the RDG camelback tender
> go to the W&W? Isn't the W&W aux
> tender (formerly used behind 3 and 37) a
> different car (thinking ex-C&O)?

Yes the RDG camelback tender was purchased with 37 by Melvyn "Skip" Small in 6/1980. I believe Skip is a partner in Four States Ry Services, operator of the West Chester RR who reportedly now has title to the loco and tender. Both 37 and tender are stored on the W&W's M&M siding in Marshallton and are reportedly supposed to leave the property soon. I had heard RCT&HS was trying to acquire the tender for their planned RDG Co. museum. I'd love to see 37 return to CA (her home state); she would make a great loco for the Sacramento Southern RR at CSRM (Kyle, are you reading this, hint, hint?!).

> I had heard that Sloan Cornell once had TWO
> former PRR doodlebugs (4666 and another
> "unknown" car) at the PVM RR.

I wonder if it was the elusive PRR 4668 that was at IRM until the late 1970s and mysteriously disappeared. Absolutely nobody seems to recall where this unit went!!

I hope this notes are of some interest.

Your for tourist railroading history,
K.R. Bell



http://rrmuseumpa.org

Jim,

The Reading Camel tender is at W&W still but owned but the folks who own #37.

Tom

Forgotten Delaware
tom@forgottendelaware.com

> Rob:

> You do just fine, buddy!! As I remember, the
> LV was a tough outfit-- after the Q&E
> trips in Pa. in 1969-70, LV wanted nothing
> to do with steam trips. HICO never operated
> on the LV. In 1975, MLSF convinced LV's
> operating trustee (Bob Timpany?) to give it
> a shot. I suspect the Emerick brothers (1/2
> of MLSF's management) had some credibility
> in the industry. The October 1975 972-148
> trip was the result.

> Before the Dec. 1975 "Blue Comet"
> trip on the NY&LB, the only previous
> steam on the Long Branch was the 1967 HICO
> 1286 trip to Bridgeton, which covered the
> NY&LB as far as Red Bank. The 148 trip
> was, I think, the first steam back at Bay
> Head since 1957.

> I had some "involvement" with both
> the MLSF trips.
You may be right about the MLSF influence Howard. I was told by a top LV VP that the only reason they allowed the 148/972 trips to South Plainfield and Lehighton was the NRHS Convention was headquartered in Bethlehem and the "home town" railroad got more than a little political pressure to allow the trips. Are we talking about the same trips?
As far as HICO not running on LV... they did physically at least... on the joint trackage north of Jim Thorpe after the CNJ was abandoned. That was on the Winter trips from Newark to Ashley in 1965 (66?) with MN&S 127(CP1278) and Strasburg 90 as helper north of Jim Thorpe.
I always thought HICO steam on the CNJ was aided by the fact that Mr. Rowland the elder was a CNJ executive. Also, the HICO trips with 1278 and later with 1286/1238 to Green Pond Jct.,Bridgeton,Ashley, and Warwick (L&HR) were among the best one day trips of that era.(post-Iron Horse Rambles)

jjburke0918@aol.com

In 1975, MLSF convinced LV's
> operating trustee (Bob Timpany?) to give it
> a shot.

Howard,

I think the LV operating trustee to which you refer was Robert Haldeman. He passed away in 1995 and his collection is now at the RR Museum of PA.

K.R. Bell

http://rrmuseumpa.org

> I wonder if it was the elusive PRR 4668 that
> was at IRM until the late 1970s and
> mysteriously disappeared. Absolutely nobody
> seems to recall where this unit went!!

I have been making an effort to keep track of the equipment IRM has deaccessed over the years, and can tell you that 4668 was sold to Clint Jones. I have no idea what happened to the car from then on.

Frank Hicks

fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

Wasn't there a PRR gas electric car at Lake Roland, the site of the proposed Baltimore Streetcar Museum and National Capital Trolley Museum before both groups split and built seperate musuem sites? I thought one was there to provide 600VDC power for the cars. I do not believe that cars ever operated at Lake Roland. Was there a railroad connection and any track built there?

Joel

> I have been making an effort to keep track
> of the equipment IRM has deaccessed over the
> years, and can tell you that 4668 was sold
> to Clint Jones. I have no idea what happened
> to the car from then on.

> Frank Hicks


Rockhill Trolley Museum
jdstrolley@enter.net

The car at Lake Roland was/is PRR No. 4662 and later went to the Wilmington & Western where it was restored to operation. In 1988-89 it received a second rebuild and is now used in charter and dinner train operations.

> Wasn't there a PRR gas electric car at Lake
> Roland, the site of the proposed Baltimore
> Streetcar Museum and National Capital
> Trolley Museum before both groups split and
> built seperate musuem sites? I thought one
> was there to provide 600VDC power for the
> cars. I do not believe that cars ever
> operated at Lake Roland. Was there a
> railroad connection and any track built
> there?

> Joel


http://rrmuseumpa.org

That Newark-Ashley trip was two trips in coldddd February 1968 out of Penn Station Newark, being post-Aldene Plan. First trip was with a CNJ FM TM to Cranford, then 127 (1278) to Jim Thorpe and 90+127 to Ashley. On return train derailed in the mountains after dark (understand it was 90's tender). Everything got fixed and second trip a week later had 90+127 into Jim Thorpe probably 90 on at Bethlehem.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> In 1975, MLSF convinced LV's

> Howard,

> I think the LV operating trustee to which
> you refer was Robert Haldeman. He passed
> away in 1995 and his collection is now at
> the RR Museum of PA.

> K.R. Bell

Ah, yes, right. All of the preceeding was from memory, and after 25++ years........ looking at my old files might be a good idea! Haldeman was actually on that trip, along with a couple other LVRR officals. And no business car!!


hpincus@mindspring.com