And there's a local railroadiana auction in that area where Reading stuff shows up all the time--where Reading foamers will happily pay for the good stuff.

It's entirely possible that the "seller" has gotten a well-deserved "reputation" as a thief in Reading circles, and there's not a chance anyone in Reading territory would touch the plates with a ten-foot pole, and eBay was his only hope for turning a quick buck off of some unknowing "sucker". Let's hope my other proposition is correct, that no one gives a wooden nickel for "questionable" stuff, and he's forced to accept a $10 tax write-off receipt!

lner4472@bcpl.net

> The way
> diesels were rebuilt, for instance during
> the Conrail era, often found major
> components, even cabs, prime movers and
> hoods, being swapped around, so who would
> know whether a particular builder's plate
> was the "right" one? And as for
> steam locomotives, I will point out that the
> builder's plate may have stayed on the
> locomotive, even when not a lot of the
> original locomotive to which it had been
> riveted still existed.

The same also occurred in the steam locomotive world; I believe the Soviets in particular were known for grabbing any builder's plate available and riveting it to a freshly shopped locomotive before sending it out.

Nameplates from a scrapped or oou locomotive were sometimes used to replace those that were missing on working locomotives. There are at least six steam locomotives in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" were I have a note they are carrying either the wrong builder's plate or number plate. No doubt there were others.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

> And there's a local railroadiana auction in
> that area where Reading stuff shows up all
> the time--where Reading foamers will happily
> pay for the good stuff.

> It's entirely possible that the
> "seller" has gotten a
> well-deserved "reputation" as a
> thief in Reading circles, and there's not a
> chance anyone in Reading territory would
> touch the plates with a ten-foot pole, and
> eBay was his only hope for turning a quick
> buck off of some unknowing
> "sucker". Let's hope my other
> proposition is correct, that no one gives a
> wooden nickel for "questionable"
> stuff, and he's forced to accept a $10 tax
> write-off receipt!
Actually, I think that you have your thieves confused. There was one Conrail (former RDG) employee who was "allowed" to plunder and pillage the Reading Company archives for whatever photos and other goodies he could get his hands on. Upon his death, his greedy sons (one a doctor, the other a lawyer, can you believe) decided to auction this booty at the local "railroad/model train" auction. I understand they were quite successful, but not with any of my dollars.

As to the deductibility of any donation, value is with the donor. It would be better if he declares a high value, and let the IRS get him.
I hope that NO ONE bids on these things. The money can be better spent on maintaining/restoring the locomotives those plates belong on!

schwartzsj@juno.com

> The ONLY use
> of a builders plate off a locomotive is as a
> hot dog platter or a collectible. And are we
> saving Reading FP7s as lease locos or
> "horsepower-by-the-hour", or are
> we saving history, including the plates it
> came with?

Yes... we are saving history, but the point you are overlooking is that without any proof or conclusive documentation as to when and how the items were removed while under Reading ownership, disappearing plates are part of the history. If they resurface later, and the preservation group wants them, they can buy them... nobody "owes" them anything because the group never owned them to begin with. It's a group's duty to preserve history as it is... they shouldn't be attempting to rewrite it just because they disagree with the methods used to save portions before they took ownership of it.

> *Fine and dandy. If he got them out of the
> dumpster, I'll pay his dumpster cost for a
> day or offer him a tax write-off for his
> donation. But paying (in this case) nearly
> $1000 for four pieces of metal that were
> removed from the locomotive under
> questionable circumstances at best only
> rewards collectible-raiding and will only
> encourage more thievery of plates, horns,
> etc. in the long run.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not encouraging anyone to pilfer anything. On the contrary, I'd like to see thieves who make off with RR stuff locked up and the key thrown away. I don't, however, advocate assuming someone is guilty unless there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that they were in the wrong. Without hard proof that the plates were acquired through illegal or unethical means, a preservation group has two choices... pay market value for an item if they want it bad enough, or hope the individual holding it/them is gracious enough to donate them.

> Anyone who would
> pursue the acquisition of plates or other
> hardware from preserved locos for any
> purpose other than returning them to the
> custody of the loco owners, in my opinion,
> is practically in cahoots with loco hardware
> thieves. The ONLY justification they can
> come up with for "stealing" is
> either resale value or perverted "I'm
> keeping someone else from stealing it"
> collector-mental-illness.

I agree with you here... but not everyone thinks that way, and there will always be those who will covet such items because nobody else has them. Such a mentality is not unique to RR preservation. Go to a show that deals with military relics and war souvenirs, and you'll see many of the same tactics in action.

> By exactly the same token, if artifacts
> "taken for safekeeping" from the
> Baghdad museums during the looting in the
> past weeks turned up at auction at Christies
> in London a year from now, should we be glad
> that the "people of Iraq" had the
> opportunity to repurchase their treasures?
> "Oh, but we can't prove they were
> stolen--they were just liberated for
> safekeeping by some agents; if they hadn't,
> looters would have smashed them, you
> know........" Same "logic" at
> work. And the answer is "NO--hand them
> over, you skunk......"

No... it's not the same logic at work. We're talking apples and oranges here. If a museum had an item in their collection, and can document that it was stolen from them (as the museum in Baghdad can do with their antiquities), the holder should be prosecuted. I don't think you'll find a curator out there, however, who will be willing to pursue someone who has an artifact that the museum never owned, but was part of a set for an item they do have. Again, the part you're missing is documentation or proof as to how the items were separated, and whether or not the museum actually had them in their possession to begin with. I can't think of any historical or preservation field that believes an item is owed or entitled to them if they never had possession of it... even if it's a part of something that's in their collection. If they can't prove it was stolen, they attempt to acquire it through the open market or by arranging with the holding individual to donate it for what it's worth. RR preservation should be no different.

> The best thing that could happen, though, is
> that no one buys the plates at all, and
> after many rounds of offering the plates at
> auction with no takers, the groups can offer
> the seller a tax write-off of $5 each!

You wouldn't see that as an insult to the individual currently owning them, if said plates were in fact procured through legal means? You're assuming the party is guilty, and letting your personal feelings get in the way of sound judgment.

In basic premise, I agree with you. Where we differ, is that if a plate resurfaces later, that the person holding it is automatically guilty and should receive nothing of value in return for donating it to the group now owning the engine.

Let me give you an example... some four years' ago, a friend of mine traded with me for a builder's plate from a somewhat rare diesel locomotive. He was well known as a railroader, had quite a few connections, and acquired that plate through legal means via the CMO of a rather large RR. I only got one plate of the two... I had no idea where the other was.

Exactly one week ago today, I located the other plate. It turns out, before the friend I traded with had passed away, he traded with another person I know for the other plate. I now know where both plates to this particular locomotive are, and both were passed along legally.

Now... here's the kicker... both plates are from a locomotive that has since (meaning after the plates were acquired legally) been preserved and donated to the museum. That museum never owned those plates, as an officer of the RR themself ordered them removed and disposed of ... which was completely in his power. Having just learned the whereabouts of the other plate, I'm planning on approaching the other individual and asking if he'll be willing to donate them to the museum and reunite them with the engine. He's under no obligation to do so, and can just as easily tell me to get bent and keep the matching plate, instead of reuniting them with the locomotive.

Would you honestly feel, that if I managed to convince this other person to donate the plate, that it would be an insult to my time and efforts, if the museum simply assumed I was guilty of stealing them, and offered me a $5 tax deduction for each one? Let me clarify... I'm not in it for the money, and have already turned down a sizeable offer from an indidual in Texas for the plate.

The bottom line is... preservation groups should be glad there are those in the field who are gracious enough to reunite artifacts, rather than treat them with contempt. Even a "thank you" for the effort will go a long way toward reducing pilferage problems, and may make someone think twice before giving in to temptation toward making a buck...


Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

simply assumed I
> was guilty of stealing them, and offered me
> a $5 tax deduction for each one?

What kind of a 501 (c)(3) are you dealing with that can offer you any monetary amount value for a donation? According to my reading of the IRS rules it is up to the donor to assign a value to any contribution and to be able to back it up should he be audited. The value of that plate would most likely be established by sales of similar plates, and some of those sales may just be on ebay. The non profit has no business telling a donor what any contribution is worth as far as the IRS is concerned.

rick@todengine.org

After a long description of a massive "gray area" in plate collecting:

> Would you honestly feel, that if I managed
> to convince this other person to donate the
> plate, that it would be an insult to my time
> and efforts, if the museum simply assumed I
> was guilty of stealing them, and offered me
> a $5 tax deduction for each one?

Yes, IF you go to the museum in good faith and offer the plates first before any trading or selling. If you put the plates on eBay first with a nice steep price, then I certainly hope the market proves them unsalable.

Let me
> clarify... I'm not in it for the money, and
> have already turned down a sizeable offer
> from an indidual in Texas for the plate.

Then MY problem is with the donkey in Texas that would make a "sizeable offer" for a plate that "belongs" with the locomotive. (At this point, it becomes a zealous religious debate: *I* say the plates belong with the locomotive and NOT on the open market; you can feel free to defend having a non-interchangeable locomotive part off a preserved locomotive owned separately from the loco.)

> The bottom line is... preservation groups
> should be glad there are those in the field
> who are gracious enough to reunite
> artifacts, rather than treat them with
> contempt. Even a "thank you" for
> the effort will go a long way toward
> reducing pilferage problems, and may make
> someone think twice before giving in to
> temptation toward making a buck...

Any preservationists I work with will be gracious, and even work financially to some extent, to people working in good faith with them. Attitude is everything. If the party on eBay were to stop the auctions and say "I didn't realize they were preserved, I was just going off of what my father wrote on the back when he worked there--can you at least give me a little money for them?" Then a quick hat passing and gracious thank-yous are in order. If the guy obviously got them for free and says "I want $600 each, take it or leave it", then you have a jackass that deserves our contempt--and to die broke so we can go to the estate sale and buy them for $1 each.

lner4472@bcpl.net

> What kind of a 501 (c)(3) are you dealing
> with that can offer you any monetary amount
> value for a donation? According to my
> reading of the IRS rules it is up to the
> donor to assign a value to any contribution
> and to be able to back it up should he be
> audited. The value of that plate would most
> likely be established by sales of similar
> plates, and some of those sales may just be
> on ebay. The non profit has no business
> telling a donor what any contribution is
> worth as far as the IRS is concerned.

Granted, MY boo-boo. Call in an appraiser to establish "fair" value. However:

Value of typical 1950-era EMD "hot-dog" plates off of scrapped locomotives: Say, $180-250?

Value of EMD hot-dog plates off of PRESERVED locomotives: In a perfect world, $0.00, unless there's a locomotive attached to them......


lner4472@bcpl.net

> No... it's not the same logic at work. We're
> talking apples and oranges here. If a museum
> had an item in their collection, and can
> document that it was stolen from them (as
> the museum in Baghdad can do with their
> antiquities),

*Not any more--the professional thieves disguised as "looters" destroyed the collections records, apparently for JUST that reason............

> Again, the part you're missing is
> documentation or proof as to how the items
> were separated, and whether or not the
> museum actually had them in their possession
> to begin with. I can't think of any
> historical or preservation field that
> believes an item is owed or entitled to them
> if they never had possession of it... even
> if it's a part of something that's in their
> collection.

*The excuses being offered for the suspected loot that has been halted at the US borders by Customs so far (according to today's newspaper articles) include "You can't prove it was stolen from Baghdad", "Hussein probably bought it on the black market/stole it themselves", "you can't prove that's Sumerian", etc. I'm just waiting to hear "If I hadn't taken it for safekeeping, someone else would have stolen it, and no one would know where it is"--the same rationale used by many locomotive hardware thieves.

If they can't prove it was
> stolen, they attempt to acquire it through
> the open market or by arranging with the
> holding individual to donate it for what
> it's worth. RR preservation should be no
> different.

There are laws in place in the international law scene that restrict or prohibit the sale, transport, and/or trafficking of many classes of antiquities, from mummies to ivory. There are also thriving black markets in all these things and more, including stolen Picassos and van Goghs. We don't have similar laws in place in the railfan market, but an informal social more against questionably-acquired artifacts may well be developing--spurred in no small part by discussions such as these here.

As far as being glad there are people who are willing to reunite items with their origins (but not for free), I'm actually far happier that the majority of fans LEAVE THE &#!*(%! THINGS WHERE THEY BELONG!



lner4472@bcpl.net

I am not a collector of loco hardware and don't know if all diesel builders plates are similar to the relatively-thin aluminum or stainless steel plates I visualize on EMD products.

Are we talking primarily about restoration of a locomotive to appear as it did at some point in its working life? If so, only railfans, and maybe only the more knowlegable among them, would know or care if the builders plate was original or a reproduction. The majority of museum visitors would never miss the original.

If it were my diesel, I would remove the existing plates and find a convincing substitute. Someone mentioned vinyl, or perhaps a metallic mylar decal or sticker. The original plates could then be displayed (and protected) indoors. Now if only someone could make plastic Nathan air horns...

tr2manz@frontiernet.net

> If it were my diesel, I would remove the
> existing plates and find a convincing
> substitute. Someone mentioned vinyl, or
> perhaps a metallic mylar decal or sticker.
> The original plates could then be displayed
> (and protected) indoors. Now if only someone
> could make plastic Nathan air horns...

A while back on this same forum I related the story of the urethane ("cast-o-lite") builders plates on the Sharks while on the Michigan Northern. It would be fairly easy to make urethane horns that would crumble if touched by a pipe wrench. . . . .

Steve Zuiderveen


SZuidervee@aol.com

> A while back on this same forum I related
> the story of the urethane
> ("cast-o-lite") builders plates on
> the Sharks while on the Michigan Northern.
> It would be fairly easy to make urethane
> horns that would crumble if touched by a
> pipe wrench. . . . .

Yes, and such horns would sound like a damn goose honk compared to the brass trumpet chorus of a Nathan K5LA! And unfortunately your casting costs would almost equal the real McCoy as well!

lner4472@bcpl.net

> After a long description of a massive
> "gray area" in plate collecting:

> Yes, IF you go to the museum in good faith
> and offer the plates first before any
> trading or selling. If you put the plates on
> eBay first with a nice steep price, then I
> certainly hope the market proves them
> unsalable.

Unfortunately, there will always be those willing to part with lots of money in exchange for "exclusive" items. I talked with the holder of the other builder's plate (from my example, not the FP7's)last week, and he had no idea the locomotive was preserved. He seemed a bit taken aback at finding that out, so I'm hoping that's a good sign he'll be willing to work with me.

Likewise, the museum in question is also well aware that I have one of the two plates. I assured them that it wasn't going to end up on the auctioneer's block, and that I have already made provisions for its immediate donation to them should anything happen to me. Now that I know where the other plate is, I'm planning on stepping up my efforts to get them in the hands of the group entrusted to the locomotive sooner rather than later.

I haven't heard from the museum director in quite some time (well over a year), so I'm sure my find will be quite a surprise...

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

> Unfortunately, there will always be those
> willing to part with lots of money in
> exchange for "exclusive" items. I
> talked with the holder of the other
> builder's plate (from my example, not the
> FP7's)last week, and he had no idea the
> locomotive was preserved. He seemed a bit
> taken aback at finding that out, so I'm
> hoping that's a good sign he'll be willing
> to work with me.

There, you see? This CAN happen, and the whole time we've been discussing the eBay auction I had been forced to assume that the seller either was completely clueless (for example, the son or daughter of a now-senile collector) or was acting with specific malice or just didn't care.

Personally, I can't POSSIBLY fathom how any RR builders plate collector could NOT do the research to find that the locomotive the plates are from is still preserved. That bespeaks such a narrow-minded focus on acquisition and collecting that a diagnosis of autism could be in order. Every plate collector *I* know goes as far as having photos of the locos with the plates, listing scrapping dates and everything.

> Likewise, the museum in question is also
> well aware that I have one of the two
> plates. I assured them that it wasn't going
> to end up on the auctioneer's block, and
> that I have already made provisions for its
> immediate donation to them should anything
> happen to me. Now that I know where the
> other plate is, I'm planning on stepping up
> my efforts to get them in the hands of the
> group entrusted to the locomotive sooner
> rather than later.

Hey, THEY know YOU have the one plate and it's destined to reach them, so that's about all that's important. This is a LOT better than having to discover the plate on eBay--or, as happened with one "celebrity" steamer in Britain in the 1990s, having the builders plates turn up wrapped in bedsheets in back of the bookshelves while auctioneers were going through a deceased fan's book collection preparing for auction, and the widow timidly asks, "might those old things be of any particular interest to anybody, do you think?"

lner4472@bcpl.net

> Personally, I can't POSSIBLY fathom how any
> RR builders plate collector could NOT do the
> research to find that the locomotive the
> plates are from is still preserved. That
> bespeaks such a narrow-minded focus on
> acquisition and collecting that a diagnosis
> of autism could be in order. Every plate
> collector *I* know goes as far as having
> photos of the locos with the plates, listing
> scrapping dates and everything.

If one is a serious collector, I'd say the chances of not knowing are seriously reduced.

In this case, however, the plates were obtained legally prior to the unit's preservation, and the other holder was more of a casual collector. He knew what builder's plate he had, but didn't follow the locomotive or RR in question and had no idea it was later donated to a museum in the midwest. In comparison, I learned of the unit's preservation as soon as the museum announced they had obtained it, and began having discussions with them before they had taken delivery of the locomotive itself.

Until last week, the other plate's whereabouts was a complete mystery, due to it being in the hands of someone who didn't pay particular attention to the specific locomotive in question. In this case, it was good... because had the other plate remained with the now deceased person whom originally obtained them, it would have likely disappeared for good when his was estate was dispersed.

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com