> What always scares me, and I think these are
> the one's you are really referring to, are
> the people who show up because they're
> looking for a life. It doesn't take long to
> realize that this person is a
> "nobody" where they're employed
> and a "nothing" everywhere else.
> They apparently hope to somehow become
> important in your group and thus validate
> themselves.

Excellent assessment, and it is hardly unique to the rail preservation field. I've seen the same personality traits in people involved with military aircraft preservation as well. A good indicator is their ability to spout off volumes of useless trivia or historical facts, but the person cannot turn a wrench without two weekends' worth of instruction.

The biggest problem, IMHO, is a lack of understanding between those entrusted to care for or restore the equipment, and those who take on the role of casual observers or afficiandos. Neither side is completely at blame, and better communication between the two vastly different groups can alleviate those problems. Sometimes, it's as easy as someone asking how the group got such a smooth finish on the locomotive's paint job, instead of offering advice on what "should" have been done, that can make all the difference between getting an attitude in return, or a more open and friendly response.

Again, such problems are not unique to RR preservation, and there are often know it alls on the other side of the equation... the ones who have never lifted a finger to work on a preservation project, but have every answer and solution to the field's problems.

The key is, to not let those random bad apples determine one's perception of the others who do have something to offer.

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

Two pieces of advice: First, budget the disassembly and initial inspection separately from repair, replacement and reassembly. This way you actually can look at everything and effectively estimate the required repairs and replacements as a second phase. Fundraising, repair/replacement and reassembly is the third phase. Predictability comes in small steps, especially with steam locomotives and wooden equipment.

Second, learn to differentiate between repair and replacement. Sometimes you have to replace something because it just isn't practical or cost effective to keep on fixing the old component. This advice includes everything from spring rigging pins to entire boilers. You might be surprised to learn it costs less to replace with new components than it does to tie up labor and resources trying to fix something that was shot decades ago.

Bill Petitjean

> Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail
> museums publicly announce that steam
> locomotives requiring extensive work will be
> finished with no problems way ahead of
> schedule, when in reality they are years
> behind schedule, are expensive propositions
> and will be finished in 3-5 years (or more)?
> Why the lies? It seems like smoke and
> mirrors deception to the donors who have
> been promised something that cannot be
> delivered truthfully! Donors have the right
> to be informed with the facts and not
> deceived with shades of gray. It should be a
> rule that telling the truth is required when
> issuing a press release. Question the board
> and the officials of the group--take an
> active role and ask them where your dollars
> are going and what the status of the project
> is. Anything less is cause for alarm.

> Another topic which I never see addressed on
> this board (and is SO pervasive in the
> railway museum field)is the "boilers
> & attitudes" issue. Why is it that
> an unusually high number of inflated egos
> are present whenever a steam locomotive is
> under restoration or is fired up? Why does
> this field tend to attract very abrasive,
> know-it-all, cocky operating-types who
> resist professionalism? I never see this
> trend at marittime museums where
> restorationists seems to be equals and
> teamwork is always at the forefront. It
> seems this type of attitude led to the
> Gettysburg RR accident--and scores of other
> "incidents" that were close to
> Gettysburg but have never been talked about.

> It is an issue that is seldom addressed in
> this forum and never seems to get any
> attention. Does anyone feel the same way as
> I?? Please speak up!


petitinc@nwlink.com

Fundraising,
> repair/replacement and reassembly is the
> third phase.

And then what happens, Bill, if you can't raise the funds, or if what is discovered in phase I exceeds your grandest expectations of any future resources? A bunch of parts and a rusting stripped carcass which will never be put together again?

Maybe we should not disassemble until we have adequate funds to reassemble and do a cosmetic restoration and provide for preservation and indoor housing in the bank as Plan B.

And, while I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about replacement, I disagree about the concept that predictability is ever more than just blind luck no matter how much consideration you put into Phase II. There are too many potential hidden and outside-influenced variables entering into the equasion. The best we can do is estimate as reasonably as possible with the expressed and honest understanding that the numbers are carved in water and subject to change due to the whims of the universe and as yet unknown physical properties of the old iron in question.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Fundraising,

> And then what happens, Bill, if you can't
> raise the funds, or if what is discovered in
> phase I exceeds your grandest expectations
> of any future resources? A bunch of parts
> and a rusting stripped carcass which will
> never be put together again?

> Maybe we should not disassemble until we
> have adequate funds to reassemble and do a
> cosmetic restoration and provide for
> preservation and indoor housing in the bank
> as Plan B.

> And, while I agree wholeheartedly with your
> assessment about replacement, I disagree
> about the concept that predictability is
> ever more than just blind luck no matter how
> much consideration you put into Phase II.
> There are too many potential hidden and
> outside-influenced variables entering into
> the equasion. The best we can do is estimate
> as reasonably as possible with the expressed
> and honest understanding that the numbers
> are carved in water and subject to change
> due to the whims of the universe and as yet
> unknown physical properties of the old iron
> in question.

> Dave

Dave is entirely right. I have seen "museums" systematically dismantle entire collections trying to find something that could be made to run, never putting anything back together. I have fought long and hard dealing with a new guy that, instead of wanting to help finnish an old project, want to grab the next complete car in line and make it his own project. After three weekends, it's half in pieces, and he gets frustrated, and there it sits...forever, Then the next guy comes along......another car dismantled...


nwstaybolt@reachone.com

> Dave is entirely right. I have seen
> "museums" systematically dismantle
> entire collections trying to find something
> that could be made to run, never putting
> anything back together. I have fought long
> and hard dealing with a new guy that,
> instead of wanting to help finnish an old
> project, want to grab the next complete car
> in line and make it his own project. After
> three weekends, it's half in pieces, and he
> gets frustrated, and there it
> sits...forever, Then the next guy comes
> along......another car dismantled...

.....the "Take-Apart-Club". How many of our groups are members of THAT organization? The "new guy" that wants to be a lone wolf, hero or "individualist" and fix up the next item in line, rather than working on the same project as everyone else (and they also tend to have a hard time keeping to the goal of the museum), needs to be told: work on an approved project, or go elsewhere. Too much has been destroyed by this sort of attitude. We have an RPO that has been victimized by THREE different "heroes". The car was the first thing we acquired, right out of RR service in 1969, rough around the edges but nice and complete. This behavior has not been tolerated at our place in the last 15-18 years, but the "legacy" still has to be dealt with--- locating what parts still remain, trying to document what was been lost, trying to figure out how it was before it all came apart, etc.


hpincus@mindspring.com

Just a few thoughts on estimating a locomotive overhaul...

The boiler should not be that difficult to assess. Removing the jacket and insulation (which should be done anyway to preserve what is left from further effects of weather) will give access for ultra-sonic testing of the shell. You can climb in the firebox and smokebox and determine most of what you need to know. Open the dome and check for problems (especially knuckle cracking on tube sheets, which begins on the water side). The dome lid is easily replaced and should be (I have seen locomotives with the dome lid removed and left that way for many years). Perhaps the boiler could be cleaned and painted; if the locomotive is to be displayed outdoors instead of restored (due to discovered problems), perhaps it is best to leave the jacket off. Or, as I have suggested to some groups working on a display locomotive, put the old (or replacement) jacket on, but leave the insulation out and space the jacket away from the boiler for air circulation. Now you know nearly everything about the boiler and the locomotive remains complete (of course, the appliances and piping should be put back on the engine and not left on the ground in a pile...be responsible and don't even touch the loco if you cannot commit to this).

Assumptions are often mistakes, but, assume that EVERYTHING will have to be done to the running and driving gear, unless inspection conclusively proves that certain work will not be necessary (perhaps the drivers were turned just before retirement; maybe the pistons actually fill the cylinders). Pull down the cellars and check the bottoms of the axles (make a little "scratcher" tool out of hard wire and gently scratch the journal from end to end and "feel" with your fingers if they are smooth or rough). Sometimes the worst spot on a journal is at the top, if the loco is lubed with oil and not grease cakes, as water will run down into the oil groove and etch the journal (use a jack and metal blocks to jack the driving box off the axle, and scratch the top, too). Put the cellars back on when you are done.

Go ahead and make your time and material estimates, neglecting nothing (air brakes, pump, brake shoes, lubricators, headlights, air tanks, cab woodwork, wiring, valve grinding, new piping, pissin' rod packing, the acorn on top of the whistle, the stinking tender). Take your estimate and add 50% (unless you know you are an overestimator already; I usually sell myself short). Then add 20 or 25% for contingencies. Make your time estimate twice what you think it will be (and, really, only experience will give you any clues as to timeframe). Expect that you will find unanticipated problems so you are mentally prepared for the worst and can take it in stride. Do not start taking the locomotive apart until all of the funding is in place and accessable, not just promises. Take photographs and tag the parts so if you die the next guy will have a better chance.

I have a lot of empathy for groups or contractors who do not have their own machine shop facilities (or facilities that can be borrowed) and talented machinists to do the work. Costs can be kept so much lower and progress can be kept up with those facilities.

Many years ago I estimated a little 2-6-2T for a private owner at $50,000. When the time came to start the project, the estimate went up to $70,000. I thought the loco was in better shape than it was once significant exploratory surgery had taken place. I was also affected by a museum financial consultant who took over the contract and meddled with the overhead costs. The finished product was $100,000 for a COMPLETE rebuild, short of a new boiler, of course. There was some volunteer help with this loco, but most volunteers preferred to work on museum locos, which is understandable, as the private loco was not to stay at the museum. Besides, the other engines needed work as well. I got my salary, and we kept the lights on at the shop, but I do not think we made any profit on the job. Profit is not my greatest motivator, however, as much of my satisfaction comes in seeing another fine locomotive steaming again.

I suppose this has turned into more than just a few thoughts, and many may believe that we must have done a "quick and dirty" overhaul for that price (which would not be true). I do not believe that the same restoration done today could be done as economically (it was a few years ago).

Expect the worst. If it's smooth sailing, maybe you'll come in under budget. Wouldn't that be remarkable!

Best Regards,

Jack Anderson

steamrr@mashell.com

With locomotives it is well to remember they are just machines. They are not magical devices that grow defects out of spite. They respond to good maintenance and overhaul practices the same as anything else.

I agree with the comments about having "Plan B" funding in hand so if the rebuild becomes prohibitive the machine can be put back together as a cosmetic restoration.

The concerns about individuals taking things apart then petering out is an issue of competency, not one of accurately estimating costs and successfully raising funds. If the in house staff does not have a good track record at restoring what they have taken apart there are very good firms with competent staff that can assist and ensure things do go back together properly. They should lead the effort.

This is not a cheap business for the faint hearted. If funding sources that are of the magnitude required to finish the rebuild or shift to a cosmetic restoration are not located and brought on board then the project should not proceed.

Bill Petitjean

> Two pieces of advice: First, budget the
> disassembly and initial inspection
> separately from repair, replacement and
> reassembly. This way you actually can look
> at everything and effectively estimate the
> required repairs and replacements as a
> second phase. Fundraising,
> repair/replacement and reassembly is the
> third phase. Predictability comes in small
> steps, especially with steam locomotives and
> wooden equipment.

> Second, learn to differentiate between
> repair and replacement. Sometimes you have
> to replace something because it just isn't
> practical or cost effective to keep on
> fixing the old component. This advice
> includes everything from spring rigging pins
> to entire boilers. You might be surprised to
> learn it costs less to replace with new
> components than it does to tie up labor and
> resources trying to fix something that was
> shot decades ago.

> Bill Petitjean


petitinc@nwlink.com

> With locomotives it is well to remember they
> are just machines. They are not magical
> devices that grow defects out of spite. They
> respond to good maintenance and overhaul
> practices the same as anything else.

Yes and no Bill........

If steam locomotives were not magical this list wouldn't exist. Small children enthralled with Thomas naturally respond to the magic, as they haven't yet learned its inappropriateness.

Magic is inherent in everything and is nature itself, and all that comes from nature and the universe. Our rational comprehension is a poor attempt to deal practically with the universe despite the inherent limitations of our senses and the tools we have created to expand them. Engineering is an attempt to quantify some of what we understand, as are all the arts and sciences.

No, I don't attribute mechanical failure to mechanical spite, although there are some recorded histories of "hoodoo" engines - the one that killed Casey Jones went on to kill more, for example - statictical analysis would seem to indicate that its incidence in murder was far beyond the average killing per engine ratio. Coincidence? Food for thought?

Check out the Journal of Irreproduceable Results. Scientists write about things they can't explain that occurred within highly controlled, laboratory conditions.

Some call it chaos theory, some the supernatural, whatever - it is essentially unknowable and rejects definition in terms we humans can comprehend. Just try to picture time as other than a linear progression in one direction, or matter and energy being the same thing. There's knowing and KNOWING, you know?

Enough wasted time, won't go into mythical or historic archetypes of magic forged into blades or rings, etc. Entertaining stories that cross all cultures. Blessed Lammas Eve.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

Hi Dave:

Well ....... I still don't think steam locomotives are magical. They are quite mystical though.

Bill Petitjean

> Yes and no Bill........

> If steam locomotives were not magical this
> list wouldn't exist. Small children
> enthralled with Thomas naturally respond to
> the magic, as they haven't yet learned its
> inappropriateness.

> Magic is inherent in everything and is
> nature itself, and all that comes from
> nature and the universe. Our rational
> comprehension is a poor attempt to deal
> practically with the universe despite the
> inherent limitations of our senses and the
> tools we have created to expand them.
> Engineering is an attempt to quantify some
> of what we understand, as are all the arts
> and sciences.

> No, I don't attribute mechanical failure to
> mechanical spite, although there are some
> recorded histories of "hoodoo"
> engines - the one that killed Casey Jones
> went on to kill more, for example -
> statictical analysis would seem to indicate
> that its incidence in murder was far beyond
> the average killing per engine ratio.
> Coincidence? Food for thought?

> Check out the Journal of Irreproduceable
> Results. Scientists write about things they
> can't explain that occurred within highly
> controlled, laboratory conditions.

> Some call it chaos theory, some the
> supernatural, whatever - it is essentially
> unknowable and rejects definition in terms
> we humans can comprehend. Just try to
> picture time as other than a linear
> progression in one direction, or matter and
> energy being the same thing. There's knowing
> and KNOWING, you know?

> Enough wasted time, won't go into mythical
> or historic archetypes of magic forged into
> blades or rings, etc. Entertaining stories
> that cross all cultures. Blessed Lammas Eve.

> dave


petitinc@nwlink.com