Note that all of the above comments praising hand signals deal with fair weather, daylight, museum-type railroading where the trainman is close to the engine. Hand signals work fine in that situation so long as everyone gives the same signals and the engineer can understand them. In the real world, railroading is done in darkness at -10F, sixty cars back. Unless someone can explain how to say "20 feet to the hitch" with a lantern, I'll stick to my usually-reliable radio even though I also have hearing loss.

ryarger@rypn.org

> Its not that simple. Radios are a great
> tool, but in some cases are inferior to hand
> signals.

ANY form of communication can be dangerous if used sloppily, or without thinking before you speak. I'm guilty of giving a radio call telling a crew,"OK, go ahead and back up". That said, I feel safer using hand signals.We use what are referred to as "Eastern" signals. I personally have never understood why you would use different signals at night than you do during the day. We have had local variations creep in, like counting carlengths left to go by pumping the forearm up and down. Like someone else already said, you need a clear understanding with everyone you are going to be working with. Do you have a crew briefing before you start the day's operations? Who are you working with today? Are you going to change engineers, conductors or brakemen as the day progresses? To work safely everyone needs to be on the same page.

Martyhuck@aol.com

> In the real
> world, railroading is done in darkness at
> -10F, sixty cars back. Unless someone can
> explain how to say "20 feet to the
> hitch" with a lantern, I'll stick to my
> usually-reliable radio even though I also
> have hearing loss.

If I were freezing my tail off in this situation, I would start you backing, at 8 car lengths I would give you an "easy slow", at 4 car lengths I would give you a stop and let your slack run out giving me, I hope, about one car length clearance. Then I would give you a backup to couple holding on to my easy slow and going to a stop signal at about 20ft. This should slide you in to a nice couple, take slack check it and go ...of course we discussed this all in our job briefing so it's no surprise. To date I have never had the battery go dead in my arm and my lantern gives me much more warning then a radio that it's going dead.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Dear Bob,

i assume you are referring to a SanAntonio company that has now become a Boca Raton company, and rest assured that most of them, if not ALL were mid-western transplants, none native to the Lone Star. And, yes, they employ(ed) some real pro-league goobers.

For switching any distance, radio is superior. especially when one uses term such as "Drag" and "come to me" as opposed to "come ahead", ect.. Radio orders should be as phonetically different as possible.

> ANY form of communication can be dangerous
> if used sloppily

Except that the things I'm thinking of are inherent exposures regardless of how well one complies with proper procedure. Experience will teach you when a radio is better and when a hand signal is better. Each has its place.

>I personally
> have never understood why you would use
> different signals at night than you do
> during the day.

AMEN!



Superheater@rrmail.com

> Except that the things I'm thinking of are
> inherent exposures regardless of how well
> one complies with proper procedure.
> Experience will teach you when a radio is
> better and when a hand signal is better.
> Each has its place.

> AMEN!

If you have never had the experience of directing a big hook for a 25 to 60 ton or even greater lift you really do not appreciate the value of hand signals because radio just does cut it for this application. You must have knowledge of the equipment and lifting procedures, a good crew, unfailing eye contact, and unfailing obedience to signals like right now! One eye on the crane, one eye on the lift and one eye on the crew ...real pucker power.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Are there variances of whistle signals in different parts of the U.S. ?
I'm particularly interested in the
- one long and two shorts, and
- one long and three shorts (while running)
and
- two shorts and one long (after stopped)

as used by the engine crews on the Cumbres & Toltec.
What are the definitions for these ?

Is there a web-site for this topic ?

> Are there variances of whistle signals in
> different parts of the U.S. ?
> I'm particularly interested in the
> - one long and two shorts, and
> - one long and three shorts (while running)
> and
> - two shorts and one long (after stopped)

> as used by the engine crews on the Cumbres
> & Toltec.
> What are the definitions for these ?

> Is there a web-site for this topic ?

Is this link official ????????


http://www.chamachoochoo.com/kidsonly/whistlesigna
lamontdc@adelphia.net

I do some track work on the Wilmington & Western, and our signals are relative to the equipment orientation. (Every time I've worked with track crew we use hand signals exclusively, but the train crew uses radios. However, the hand signals are defined in the rule book as hand up and down means "move forward" and the circle is "back up". I'm glad I don't work on both railroads.)

This works well as the track crew almost always works on days where there are no trains, or up the line past where the train is running when we're working.

Another interesting issue is that the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern in Kempton PA uses only hand signals and no radios. They use the same signals as the W&W. This must be a regional thing.

> At SCRM, we use signals that are relative to
> the person giving the signal. That means the
> hand moved up and down means "move away
> from me" and the hand moved in a
> circle, pivoted at the elbow, means
> "come towards me." This tends to
> confuse people who have worked for the local
> freight railroads, because they use signals
> that are relative to the locomotive. Other
> than that, our signals are pretty clear --
> although we've got one guy who insists on
> giving a "move away" signal with
> his hand vertical instead of horizontal,
> making it look like a stop signal.

> An interesting topic we've BS'd about some
> is signals that aren't in the rulebook --
> such as "turning in the air" or
> "time to eat." Radios have
> rendered such signals mostly obsolete, but
> we *do* occasionally conduct quick switching
> operations sans radios so we still use them
> once in a blue moon.


acp19809@yahoo.com

> Note that all of the above comments praising
> hand signals deal with fair weather,
> daylight, museum-type railroading where the
> trainman is close to the engine. Hand
> signals work fine in that situation so long
> as everyone gives the same signals and the
> engineer can understand them. In the real
> world, railroading is done in darkness at
> -10F, sixty cars back. Unless someone can
> explain how to say "20 feet to the
> hitch" with a lantern, I'll stick to my
> usually-reliable radio even though I also
> have hearing loss.

I have used hand signals under all of these conditions and you can throw in snow storms, ice storms, pouring rain, and dense fog. When visibility gets low the lantern become a fusee. Who does not understand that when the fusee is thrown straight up into the air you put the train into emergency? I know I am getting close to a coupling and to reduce speed for the coupling because the brakeman gives me a steady signal and I know the raliroad and work well enough to know that that the coupling is getting close. If I slow down to soon I will get a speed up signal from the man on the ground. If you are sitting on the seat you should have enough time on the railroad to know what is going on. Remember, the man on the ground is controlling the length of the move and speed regardless of what type of signals you are using.

I have missed a few hand signals over the years but I have missed more radio calls. I have also been saved from accidents because the brakeman could give a hand signal before he could find the mike button and key the radio. Hand signals force the engineer to watch what is going on closely instead of sitting on the seat facing forward while backing. If you are watching hand signals you can not miss the move because the pop is lifting, the air is exhausting, or the turbo is screaming. The only time a radio is absolutely necessary is when visibility is obstructed and you do not have enough crewman to relay signals. Even then you have the option of reducing the length of the cut of cars and making the move in shorter cuts.

Call me an old fart but I miss the days when you could switch for three hours and the conductor never said a word. Hand signals (these were unique to the area and sometimes the crews) were used to relay the next few moves and if the conductor sensed you did not understand the moves he stopped and made sure you did. Nothing is more irritating than to have someone talking to you on the raidio when they are so close you can hear them without the radio. As for using radios on the short trains around museums I think it usually looks pretty Micky Mouse. Mark me up as one who thinks brakeman, like children, should be seen and not heard.

John



jhbohon@yahoo.com

Nothing is more irritating
> than to have someone talking to you on the
> raidio when they are so close you can hear
> them without the radio. As for using radios
> on the short trains around museums I think
> it usually looks pretty Micky Mouse. Mark me
> up as one who thinks brakeman, like
> children, should be seen and not heard.

> John

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I cannot understand why a museum line that is trying to recreate a historic experience for its customers would resort to using radios on a three car train, especially if it is a steam train!

Most museum trips are fairly short trains and mostly run in the daytime, therefore it should be easy to implement hand signals. Radios have their place and can be very helpful in situations where there are safety concerns (derailments, passenger injuries, etc), but I think they are over-used on museum lines.

Different story on freight roads, but this IS the RYPN board, right?


hillmans@cinternet.net

After reading through this thread, there are a few things nobody has mentioned.

First, using hand signs forces you learn how to think, follow along with what's going on, and most importantly keep your eyes peeled to your surroundings. When you have to keep your eyes on things, it keeps you better tuned into the job. Every time you have to walk 20 car lengths to ask the conductor (or engine foreman), a question, it's another 20 car lengths back to where you started from. This is a good incentive to learn what's going on and how to follow along with the work as it transpires. When you're working as a helper (brakeman or switchman), once you've learned to follow along, you don't really need a copy of the switch list. Radios have dumbed things down considerably.

The "Western" hand signs (i.e. the different daytime hand signs) date back at least 100 years. They're not very difficult to learn. I've never discovered how the difference arose, but then again, the Eastern rule book is different than the Western one as well. Neither is "right"; neither is "wrong". They're just to different versions of the same thing. The one you prefer is the one you learned first.

If it's too much trouble to learn the difference between day hand signs and night lantern signs, go get a job delivering newspapers or slinging hash in a beanery somewhere.

Hand signs for car counts, stock track, house track, run around, make a turn, kick, drop, hot [brake] shoes, etc. aren't in any rule book.

People give hand signs no differently than they talk (or walk). When you use hand signs, give them as you would speak; after all, you are using your hands in lieu of your voice. Don't give a large, wild go ahead sign or highball (shout) if all you want to do is travel at a moderate pace. If you want to move a little bit, like when spotting a boxcar at a doorway, give a small sign. To move slowly, give a relaxed, easy going sign. If it's essential to get out of the way of an impending collision, then give the wild highball.

I have 34+ years experience as a switchman and engineer, all of it on a class 1 carrier, and I would much rather work using hand signs than wtih a radio baby any day

> I have 34+ years experience as a switchman
> and engineer, all of it on a class 1
> carrier, and I would much rather work using
> hand signs than wtih a radio baby any day

This is an operating scenerio on a tourist railroad that may not be the best but it it the way it is:

An E-unit with two LIRR coaches backing 5 miles across a gated crossing and four rural crossings with crossbucks.
The rear brakeman controls the train by radio relaying the whistle signals and crossing conditions to the engineer. Starting at the whistle post for the rural crossings the train slows to about 5mph, the rear brakeman calls the whistle signals leaving the last long for when he has a clear view of the traffic conditions and OKs the train to occupy the crossing. Given the visibility of an E when backing and the need for instantaneous concise information, radio fits the bill. Loss of the radio of course means stopping and flagging the crossings, resorting to hand or lantern signals.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

While the radio does have it's uses, I must agree with some of the others that many of today's railroaders (both "recreational" and professional) have become too dependant on technology and lost a degree of skill. The fear that many of the old timers expressed about the new guys becoming too dependant on the radio has, to an extent, come true. Part of the problem is that much of the radio chatter that I see going on is unnecessary. The radio should be reserved for use where voice communication is essential such as performing certain inspections, establishing Blue Flag protection, etc. Do you really need to call the engineer on the radio with a message when you could simply walk a carlength and talk to him?

One of the greatest problems is that many railroads and their museum counterparts place so many operations (in addition to train operations) on one or two frequency bands that they are easily clogged with radio traffic. I have had times that non-train operations traffic so clogged the frequency that none of my crewmen or I could get a word in edgewise to get them to clear the channel. In those cases, I would simply give the word to use hand signals. Also, I agree that whille they may be a necessary safety aid in the modern age, they look tacky when used by uniformed trainmen or enginemen, especially the new models with the shoulder mic. Myself, I wear a company radio without the shoulder mic. When working as a passenger conductor, I will wear the radio so that it is inconspicuios. If I wear my uniform coat, the radio is worn so that the coat conceals it but I can use it when necessary.

awalker2002@comcast.net

> This is an operating scenerio on a tourist
> railroad that may not be the best but it it
> the way it is:

> An E-unit with two LIRR coaches backing 5
> miles across a gated crossing and four rural
> crossings with crossbucks.
> The rear brakeman controls the train by
> radio relaying the whistle signals and
> crossing conditions to the engineer.
> Starting at the whistle post for the rural
> crossings the train slows to about 5mph, the
> rear brakeman calls the whistle signals
> leaving the last long for when he has a
> clear view of the traffic conditions and OKs
> the train to occupy the crossing. Given the
> visibility of an E when backing and the need
> for instantaneous concise information, radio
> fits the bill. Loss of the radio of course
> means stopping and flagging the crossings,
> resorting to hand or lantern signals.

Hmm, that sounds vaguely familiar. Even a switcher has limited visibility when it's shoving a 90-ton heavyweight dining car and a Canuk coach.

When SCRM first got the Canuks, we did blind shoves with 'em all the way from Summit back to Rockton -- 2.5 miles. Don't know how we got away with it, just lucky I guess. We now protect all shoving movements by having the con or a brakeman stand on the leading platform and radio signals to the engineer. Rather difficult to do this with hand signals.

The one thing I like about the Canuk ex-EMUs is that they all have horns on one end. Three of the four have the cabs facing east so the eastbound shove has a horn on the lead end. Tooting the horn gives some of our younger members a job to do that's important but can't get them or someone else in trouble -- keeps 'em involved.

The only time the lead end of a shove isn't protected from on board the train is the eastbound shove across US 321, a four-lane divided highway. The con and two flagmen are on the ground flagging the crossing during that fairly short shove, so it's not really unprotected. And as mentioned, there's almost always a horn on the lead end of the shove thanks to the remains of the control cabs in the Canuks.

I tend to agree that radios are overused. I prefer hand signals and have taken some heat for that on occasion. "Radios are more clear." That's a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, and it's often simply not true. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Experience dictates whether it's better to use the radio or a hand signal.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net