> The name of the owner of these locomotives,
> I believe, was Dick Jensen - not Jenkins!

You're right! I art confused! Verily.

glueck@maine.edu

Two 5629s and 5632s existed in the post steam world. That's right, two GTW 4-6-2's and two CBQ 4-8-4. One of each was cut up in the post steam era. One of each is still with us. GTW 5629 a 4-6-2 and CBQ 5632, a 4-8-4, both ran excursions in the post steam era, were both owned by Dick Jensen, and both cut up. CBQ 5629 and GTW 5632 are still both out there on display.

Tom Gears

I don't recall anything being saved off GTW 5629. The original tender had already been scrapped at about the same time as Q 5632.

Here's a question: If the same event were to happen today, how would we deal with it? There is still a fair amount of equipment in a similar predicament today, sometimes owned by odd-behaving individuals or poorly-organized groups.

At the time of the 5629 scrapping, those who wanted it ruled out civil disobedience and a possible clubbing from the Chicago cops. What would we do today? I'm sure the internet would be of value now.

In 5629's case, I believe it was destroyed by a public agency, with public funds. Most endangered stuff today is probably in a private vs. private situation. Any thoughts on how best to deal with such situations?



5629 sound sample
ryarger@rypn.org

> Richard Jenkins own two steam locomotives
> that met similar fates; both classics and
> both fan trip legends. Be careful when you
> cite the scrappings of these engines. 5632
> was a Burlington O5 Northern; a huge engine
> that ran miles and miles on the Burlington,
> by the Burlington. 5629 was a GTW Pacific,
> and a prettier light Pacific probably never
> ran. Though the numbers were close, the
> locomotives were unrelated. For whatever
> reasons, and I've heard several version to
> the stories ranging from stubborn
> intransigence on the part of Jenkins, to
> mean-spiritedness by loathsome,
> insignificant, bureaucrats who just wanted
> to show their authority, both locomotives
> were destroyed. In the case of the 5629,
> museums and other sponsors even rallied to
> purchase the loco, to no avail. In the case
> of the CB&Q Northern, a court ruled in
> favor of Jenkins, but the loco was torched
> and gone by then, with no way to bring her
> back.
> Why did Jenkins have such horrible luck with
> these engines? I have no idea. I believe he
> died shortly after his engines, broken,
> impoverished, and disspirited. A true
> tragedy of the age of steam revival.

> Anyway, 5629 was a GTW 4-6-2 and 5632 was a
> CB&Q 4-8-4. Close numbers, but that's
> all. Oh, another coinicidence is that
> railfan and website builder Richard Jenkins,
> who you see these days, is not the same
> railfan. I wrote of above.

Richard:

You speak of Richard (Dick) Jensen of course. As to the numbers being close....when I was riding the "Q" trips behind 5632 and someone told me that Dick had purchased the 5629, I thought he had purchased the BURLINGTON'S 5629, a different O5b class Northern. Later I got the correct story but it is rather ironic that the CB&Q's 5629 was preserved after all, ending up at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden!

As for that matter, the Grand Trunk Western's 5632, a slightly different 4-6-2 was also saved, ending up in Durand, Michigan!

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Here's a question: If the same event were to
> happen today, how would we deal with it?
> There is still a fair amount of equipment in
> a similar predicament today, sometimes owned
> by odd-behaving individuals or
> poorly-organized groups.

> At the time of the 5629 scrapping, those who
> wanted it ruled out civil disobedience and a
> possible clubbing from the Chicago cops.
> What would we do today? I'm sure the
> internet would be of value now.

While the electronic age has facilitated some ability to generate awareness for a particular cause, little has changed in regard to our industry's ability of providing the necessary resources to "make it happen."

Can similar circumstances prevail which will result in the future scrapping of a steam locomotive? Regretably, yes.



kamiddle@rockwellcollins.com

When persons or legal entities choose to use the legal system for their own purposes not in the direction with the common good, lie and cheat to warp the legal system, or ignore court rulings which prohibit them from performing an action for their own self interest, there is litter that anyone can do to stop them. In most of Jensen's whoes he became the victim of the system because he trusted it to protect him instead of having it violating him.

rich-young@afbisinc.com

> When persons or legal entities choose to use
> the legal system for their own purposes not
> in the direction with the common good, lie
> and cheat to warp the legal system, or
> ignore court rulings which prohibit them
> from performing an action for their own self
> interest, there is litter that anyone can do
> to stop them. In most of Jensen's whoes he
> became the victim of the system because he
> trusted it to protect him instead of having
> it violating him.

And lest you think anything has changed we lost a bridge a coupla years ago under the same system!
(don't ask)

lamontdc@adelphia.net

I maybe wrong, but I thought some small parts of 5629 were saved by IRM (bell, etc). Maybe somebody else can chime in.

Bob, if you recollect, this past Spring, a large cadre of group regulars, myself included, pounded a town government in the midwest concerning the decision to bury a Soo Line Pacific. I believe the emails and phone calls alerted the town council to the depth of trouble they were walking into. Hasn't an agency of dedicated railfans undertaken a salvation plan for the loco?


glueck@maine.edu

We haven't lost anymore mainline engines recently in America. But the losses do continue; I have continued J. David Conrads' "Recent Losses" list by leaving recently scrapped engines in the database, but with a note they have been scrapped.

Here is the list to date:
1. ALCO (Cooke) 0-4-0T 64992/1923; once on display at the JFK Playground, 6+7th & O+PSt NW, Washington, DC; scrapped in the late 1990s.

2. Consumers Co. 1921 H.K. Porter 0-4-0T #26; once at Vulcan Materials Co., 5517 N. Northwest Hwy, Crystal Lake, IL; scrapped

3. A. H. Smith VIW 0-4-2T 2618/1917 #5; once at sand-gravel co., Branchville, MD; scrapped.

4. NdeM 4-8-4 #3039 (ALCO 73024/1946); once at Valla de Mexico yard, Tlalnepantla, Mexico; scrapped

5. One of the fireless locomotives owned by a leather company; I forgot to leave it in the database.

Some possible losses; but not sure:

1. Remains of Glen Alden Coal 0-4-0ST #8 (VIW); once near a culm pile at the coal mine at Wanamie, PA; fate uncertain after cleanup of the mine site.

2. NdeM 4-8-4 #3027 (ALCO 74382/1946); once at NdeM scrapyard, Huehuetoca, Mexico; believed scrapped

3. NdeM 4-8-4 #3035 (ALCO 73020/1946); once at NdeM scrapyard, Huehuetoca, Mexico; believed scrapped

Even more depressing is the list of steamships lost just this year. I don't think I posted it here, so I will list them here:

1. OceanBreeze (ex Southern Cross), Passenger Steamer, was with Imperial Majesty Cruise Line, Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA; sold for scrap.

2. S.S. Enchanted Isle, passenger steamer, stored in New Orleans, LA, USA; sold for scrap.

3. Pvt. Joseph Merrill or Cornelius G. Kolff (not sure which), Staten Island ferry, was afloat as a prison barge at Riker's Island, NY, USA; broken up.

4. S.S. Nita M. (David P. Reynolds), bulk carrier, was being used as floating storage facility in Port Neches, TX, USA; sold for scrap.

5. S.S. Algosound, Great Lakes ore carrier; sold for scrap.

6. S.S. Mapleglen, Great Lakes ore carrier; sold for scrap.

7. S.S. Oakglen, Great Lakes ore carrier; sold for scrap.

8. Stella Solaris (ex Cambodge), passenger steamer, was stored by Royal Olympic Cruises, Piraeus, Greece; sold for scrap.

9. Big Red Boat III (ex Transvaal Castle), passenger steamer, was stored in Freeport, Bahamas; sold for scrap.

10. S.S. Dolphin IV, passenger steamer, was stored in Freeport, Bahamas; sold for scrap.

11. Sea Giant, ULCC, registered to Frontline Ltd., Nassau, Bahamas; sold for scrap.

12. S.S. Kinsman Enterprise, Great Lakes ore carrier, stored in Buffalo, NY, USA; out of use.

13. U.S.S. Calooshatchee; 1945-built feet oiler; stored in the maritime reserve fleet in the James River; towed to the UK for scrapping.

14. U.S.S. Canisteo; 1945-built feet oiler; stored in the maritime reserve fleet in the James River; towed to the UK for scrapping.

The last two are the first of roughly fifty of the ships stored in maritime reserves across the country that will be going to the scrappers shortly.

On the endangered list are:

15. Lewis G. Harriman; great lakes ore carrier; mentioned here in a previous post.

16. S.S. Aquarama (ex Marine Star), passenger steamer, plans to use it as a floating casino fell through; now stored in Buffalo, NY, USA.

17. Lansdowne, side wheel car ferry, was a restaurant on Sassafras Street, Erie, PA, USA; now gutted and likely to be scrapped by the city of Erie.

18. S.S. Nobska, coastal steamer, in the middle of a restoration in Charleston Navy Yard drydock, Charleston, SC, USA; drydock is now needed for work on U.S.S. Constitution and she must either be removed or scrapped.

19. S.S. Canadiana, screw passenger steamer, derelict in Port Colborne, ON, Canada; scrapping likely.

20. S.S. Catalina, screw passenger steamer, derelict in Ensenada harbor, Baja California, Mexico; mentioned here as well.

21. Chipchase, steam tugboat, private owner in Maryport, Cumbria, UK; future uncertain.

22. S.S. Duke of Lancaster, Sealink (ex BR) ferry, beached in a small creek two miles east of Mostyn. Future uncertain; was a nightclub and supermarket.

23. HMS Intrepid, Royal Navy Landing Ship Dock; stored in the Royal Navy Yard in Portsmouth, UK. She and sister ship HMS Fearless were the last steamships in the Royal Navy. Plans are afoot to preserve HMS Fearless, but the Intrepid will probably be scrapped.

24. Big Red Boat II (ex Edinburgh Castle), passenger steamer, stored in Freeport Bahamas; will she escape the scrapping unlike her sister
ships? I believe a preservation group is trying to bring her to the UK.

25. S.S. Rembrandt (ex S.S. Rotterdam), passenger steamer, stored in Freeport Bahamas; once again a preservation group has been formed to rescue her, will she escape scrapping?

26. S.S. Copa Casino (ex Ryndam), passenger steamer, was a casino in Mobile, AL, USA; I believe in fact she is going to the breakers.

27. S.S. Enchanted Capri, passenger steamer, stored in New Orleans; how long before she follows S.S. Enchanted Isle to the breakers?

28. Seawind Crown (ex Infante Dom Henrique), stored in Barcelona, Spain; what will her future be?

29. President (ex Cincinnati), side wheel steamer (converted to diesel, but her engines and boilers remain), was a casino, currently tied up for sale in Vicksburg, MS, USA; will a good home be found for this desingated national landmark?

30. River Queen (ex S.S. Shasta), ex-SP passenger ferry, was "The River Queen" nightclub, Portland, OR, USA, now for sale; like the President, a National Historic Vessel, but can she find a good home?

31. S.S. Norway; last steam passenger ocean liner still in operation; following boiler explosion this year. Will she be repaired, converted to diesel, or replace by two new builds? No one seems to know.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project
james1@pernet.net

A few minor additions/corrections on the steamships list:

> 5. S.S. Algosound, Great Lakes ore carrier;
> sold for scrap.

- still in Montreal awaiting the tow to India. She was the last steamer in the Algoma Central fleet.

> 12. S.S. Kinsman Enterprise, Great Lakes ore
> carrier, stored in Buffalo, NY, USA; out of
> use.

- demolition now underway in Port Colborne, Ontario

> 26. S.S. Copa Casino (ex Ryndam), passenger
> steamer, was a casino in Mobile, AL, USA; I
> believe in fact she is going to the
> breakers.

- gone. I believe she was towed to India over the summer.

Additions:

Scrapped:

S.S. Seaway Queen, 1958 Great Lakes ore carrier. Owners Upper Lakes Shipping tried unsuccessfully to find her a home as a museum on the Canadian side of the Lakes. Towed from Montreal bound for scrapping in India earlier this month.

Endangered:

S.T. Crapo, 1927 Great Lakes cement carrier. Was converted to permanent storage status in October with the removal of her propeller and shaft, though she remains otherwise intact. She had been the last active triple-expansion steamer on the Great Lakes, last ran in 1996. She was also the last coal-fired freighter before being converted to oil firing over the winter of 1994-1995. Would be an excellent candidate for preservation, but rumors have indicated that she may be cut down and notched out for further use as a tow barge at some point in the future.

P.S. Ryde, 1937 former British Railways/Southern Railway paddle steamer, derelict at a marina in Binfield, Isle of Wight. New marina owner wants her gone, a preservation group is being formed to try to save her.

S.S. Columbia, 1902 Great Lakes excursion steamer. Rotting away in Detroit since 1991, last year it was announced that a group was going to bring her to New York for restoration and service on the Hudson River, so far no sign of that happening, boat continues to rot in Detroit.

Here's another shot of the Lewis G. Harriman scrap tow, from Boatnerd.com

Northeastern Maritime Historical Foundation

rjenkins@railfan.net

> Endangered:

> S.T. Crapo, 1927 Great Lakes cement carrier.
> Was converted to permanent storage status in
> October with the removal of her propeller
> and shaft, though she remains otherwise
> intact. She had been the last active
> triple-expansion steamer on the Great Lakes,
> last ran in 1996. She was also the last
> coal-fired freighter before being converted
> to oil firing over the winter of 1994-1995.
> Would be an excellent candidate for
> preservation, but rumors have indicated that
> she may be cut down and notched out for
> further use as a tow barge at some point in
> the future.

- E.M. Ford. has been sitting in Saginaw for some time for storage. Was built in 1898 by Cleveland Shipbuilding. Originally the Presque Isle of the Cleveland Cliffs, she was converted at Christy's in Sturgeon bay in 1956. She last moved under her own power in the 90's. To my knowledge, the only freighter of that age left, and definitely the oldest left on the Great Lakes. I believe she has a Quad, and is roughly 428 feet. How long she will remain for storage is unknown.

- Pere Marquette #10. Last Pere Marquette Railway river ferry left, unless the #12 has NOT been scrapped in Africa as last reported. Built in 1945 by Manitowoc, it was converted into a rail barge (Skinner Uniflows are still there in her for weight) and operated that way until 1995. Tied up in Port Huron from 1995-2003, she is now in the Frog pond in Toledo awaiting conversion for pulpwood or scrapping. Efforts at preserving her have failed to date; Escanaba & Lake Superior Railway now owns her, asking $250,000.

-Roanoke. Originally the City of Flint# 32 of P.M. Lake Michigan fleet, she suffered a fire in 1973 and was cut down to a train barge. She was then sold to N&W in 1970, last operated in 1998. Remains at the Frog Pond in Toledo. Asking price $250,000

-Windsor. Last of the Wabash ferried that is uncoverted to Pulp wood trade (Manitowoc was recently sold and converted), she was built in 1930 in Toledo and was converted to a tug barge in 1969. Last operated in 1998. Aksing price: $250,000.



[img]http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/imagesRRHX/CarFerries/PMCarferry10atPortHuronDock(PM12inStorage)c.1965[TJGaffney].jpg[/img]
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

I have heard that Inland Lakes Management, owners of the E.M. Ford and S.T. Crapo, are interested in seeing the Ford preserved when they are done with her as a storage vessel. They also own the 1904-vintage J.B. Ford in a similar role in Superior, Wisconsin. However, they have stated that they have no plans to part with any of their ships for at least the next few years.

rjenkins@railfan.net

I have also heard the same about these three vessels.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> I have heard that Inland Lakes Management,
> owners of the E.M. Ford and S.T. Crapo, are
> interested in seeing the Ford preserved when
> they are done with her as a storage vessel.
> They also own the 1904-vintage J.B. Ford in
> a similar role in Superior, Wisconsin.
> However, they have stated that they have no
> plans to part with any of their ships for at
> least the next few years.


Surviving World Steam Project
james1@pernet.net

The Marine Fiddler (1945) was towed from the James River Ghost Fleet this week for scrapping in CHesapeake VA, and the Santa Elena was towed to Brownville TX also for scrapping. The Ghost Fleet consists of about 70 vessels and there is great concern about the impact of a Hurricane and potential environmental disaster. They rode out Isabel pretty well though.

Bill Hayes
Norfolk VA