> We make drift cards for most of our color
> matched custom paints also. I prefer to use
> a plain unlined 3x5 white index card,
> although I suppose we should be using
> archival acid free stock. When the cards are
> thoroughly dry, we place them inside black
> paper envelopes to prevent UV deterioration,
> or place them in glassine envelopes inside a
> closed metal card file. Even in the
> relatively short time period we have been
> doing this, we have accumulated a sizable
> library of colors, and they have already
> proved their value as at least one formula
> has been discontinued by the mfr. and we had
> to do a new mix. We also keep a spreadsheet
> record of the pigment formula and base code,
> since this is often only recorded on the lid
> of the can; which we regard as somewhat
> perishable. It really simplifies re-ordering
> as the formula can be telephoned in and the
> paint is waiting when you go in to pick it
> up.

Our people at OERM make up the drift cards on metal. These are about 3"x5" with a punched hole near one end. Initially these were obtained from an outside source along with the black paper sleeve for the storage of the cards. I will try to get the specifics.

As Bob says, keeping a written record is also important. Like any record you want to make sure you keep, make up mulitple copies and keep them at different sites. Likewise, make up duplicate drift cards when you are painting.

Brian Norden

What are you folks that do this using for a base coat. The color you see is directly affected by the base color unless you can put enough coats on to see mask the effect. (white primer, grey primer, oxide primer and black primer will affect the finish color differently)

lamontdc@adelphia.net

> As Brian Norder suggests the best bet is to
> color match a sample on the car, after
> locating a protected spot previously hidden
> behind molding, etc. In any event if you are
> using DuPont numbers you all may want to get
> a match, color drift card made, or
> conversion formula fiarly soon. They have
> exited that business - but in our area there
> are still companies who will try to cross
> reference records and get a new number and
> formula for paints now more available.

The exit was hastened by the unfortunate passing last year of George Rust, who worked in the Dupont Rairoad Department. He always has a cheerful attitude when asked to help with research of the old railroad paint numbers.

I had some assistance from George fifteen years ago when researching Lackawanna colors while at Steamtown, but never had met him in person. Two years ago while in Wilmington DE on a passenger car consultant job, I took my companion in to Mitchell's hobby store to show him the used book collection and got talking to the clerk behind the counter, and the talk turned toward paint colors. I mentioned to the gentleman that a nice guy from Dupont had helped me many years previous on a project, and it turned out that it was him! George worked part time at Mitchells in his last years. He said that he had just completed the project to come up with the new versions of Enchantment Blue and Federal Yellow for the newest CSX scheme. A fine man and sadly missed.

Steve Zuiderveen

btw, the orginal research for the EL #3 business car turned up the official names of E-L Green-Gray and Rock Island Maroon as the Dulux colors used in its last repainting. Too long ago to remember the mix numbers!


SZuidervee@aol.com

> The exit was hastened by the unfortunate
> passing last year of George Rust, who worked
> in the Dupont Rairoad Department. He always
> has a cheerful attitude when asked to help
> with research of the old railroad paint
> numbers.

> I had some assistance from George fifteen
> years ago when researching Lackawanna colors
> while at Steamtown, but never had met him in
> person. Two years ago while in Wilmington DE
> on a passenger car consultant job, I took my
> companion in to Mitchell's hobby store to
> show him the used book collection and got
> talking to the clerk behind the counter, and
> the talk turned toward paint colors. I
> mentioned to the gentleman that a nice guy
> from Dupont had helped me many years
> previous on a project, and it turned out
> that it was him! George worked part time at
> Mitchells in his last years. He said that he
> had just completed the project to come up
> with the new versions of Enchantment Blue
> and Federal Yellow for the newest CSX
> scheme. A fine man and sadly missed.

> Steve Zuiderveen

> btw, the orginal research for the EL #3
> business car turned up the official names of
> E-L Green-Gray and Rock Island Maroon as the
> Dulux colors used in its last repainting.
> Too long ago to remember the mix numbers!

I never was in contact with Mr. Rust, but a good friend had been in contact with Mr. Rust. I am told that Mr. Rust had determined that many railroads used the same colors, but for sake of company pride DuPont listed the paint under different names and numbers for each customer. It would just not do for the Burlington to be buying Santa Fe red!

I understand he was trying to document all the various railroad colors cross match them between railroads.

He surely is missed.

Brian Norden.

> What are you folks that do this using for a
> base coat. The color you see is directly
> affected by the base color unless you can
> put enough coats on to see mask the effect.
> (white primer, grey primer, oxide primer and
> black primer will affect the finish color
> differently)

Conversation today was that the recommendation is either gray or white undercoat.

We got the pre-cut metal for our drift cards from:
Q-Panel Lab Products of Cleveland Ohio. Stock No. R-36, Steel Dull Matte Finish, 0.032"x3"x6"

This firm primiarly provides stock and services for weather testing. But as its website says about these metal test subtracts "are economical enough to be used for sales samples and batch records."

I would store the paint drift samples within an acid-neutral envelope. And keep samples in different locations, just like you would keep a computer back-up at a different location.

Brian Norden
OERM

Q-Panel test panels

Thanks

Tim


fltenwheeler@aol.com

Someone on the live steam board found the following numbers for Pullman Green

They found that 4 railroads, a boat maker, BMW and a couple of other
OEM's use Pullman green.

The new numbers as follows, old Pullman green 1547, new Pullman 1548, and
standard green 1550.

These are found under the industrial paint book.


Tim

But which manufacturer?? DuPont, S-W, other????

Sorry about that.

DuPont

Tim

I have a fairly good supply of Dupont Dulux Enamel in Pullman Green that I had mixed a number of years ago for a project that still seems to be in usable condition. The last time I used it I compared a well dried sample with a storage box that was painted when I frist got the paint and the match was still exact. I would be happy to make up some sample cards for anyone that is needing them - you could take them to a local paint company and have them matched.

One word of caution - someone made the suggestion to just get some model railroad Pullman Green and match it - that is not a good idea. I have not found any brand of model paint to be even close to the Pullman Green I have from Dupont. Many years ago Floquil's Pullman Green was an exact match (I have some cars around that I painted over 30 years ago and they match the Dupont exactly) today it isn't even close. Another word of caution is that the same formula in different types of paint will look different once it dries or cures (the case with many modern paints). If you put a car painted with enamel next to a car of the "same" color painted with acrylic you would never believe they were matched to the same color sample.

I would think that the paint designed for models was formulated to be viewed under artificial lighting conditions, fluorescent, incandescent or halogen, etc., in the range of 2800 - 4000K (Kelvin degrees). The same paint would appear substantially different in daylight, where the color temperature hovers around 5600K.

No doubt the model paint is designed to be viewed under different conditions and uses significantly finer pigments for the coloring. That would be another reason to not trust model paints for matching on real railroad cars. All of that being said if you know true Pullman Green the model paints are still a fairly significant variation from the right color even in their proper lighting conditions.

There is an existing full set of the actual Pullman Company drift cards in a private collection. There were plans at one time to have it reproduced by the company that makes paint chip cards for the paint stores. Unfortunately the publisher that was working on the project didn't see the need or the value in doing such a precise reproduction and killed that part of the project. I am sure if there was enough interest in reproducing them it would still be possible albeit expensive.