I'm considering this issue hard, and I'm finding it quite satisfying that it IS rather hard to come up with any serious contenders for "Top 10" or "Top 100"! For the most part, we're stuck with naming specific locations that, perhaps in the grand sceme of things, are not that tremendous a loss (a station here, a roundhouse there, a train here, some unpreserved diesel there--did we really need to save a U50C?), as well as some broad-brush losses (decline in mainline steam).

One more conceptual loss I can add to the mix--the rapidly-diminishing branchline grain lines of western Canada, with their stick rail, 40-foot boxcars, RS1325's, and wooden grain elevators. If any loss reeks of the loss of a "lifestyle" akin to that O. Winston Link photographed in the 1950s but occurring in the last 25 years, this would have to be it.

What about the caboose? Railroading doesn't seem the same without its "punctuation mark".

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Watching (and surviving) the decline of the steel industry from 1966 to date from the inside I saw a little different picture from the one you have painted. It would appear that you have stretched conditions from the turn of the century into that time period. I saw folks making $50K to $100K/year with full benefits (living to ripe old ages) in conditions having a lower accident frequency then your house. I saw rail being rolled, wheels and axles made, structural steel for bridges, skyscrapers, railroad locomotives, cars, cables, bombs, nuts bolts and brillo pads (a difficult application). And you know what, the majority of the zillions of tons of materials moved, moved on railroads. So now all this traffic has been replaced by containers from China and seaway traffic has jumped due to imported steel. If you are shortsighted enough to think the switch to a "service" ecomomy has a rosy future, I feel sorry for you ..and for the folks that have to make a decent wage in this "brave new world". This great island of prosperity can grow on the backs of emerging nations and cheap transportation, NOT.

happy new year

lamontdc@adelphia.net

A comprehensive list; What about the potential to have significant locomotives yet to be scrapped, only because full restoration costs too much, indoor shelter is wanting, and "there are other examples". I am thinking most specifically about the "Washington Station GG-1", stored outside the B&O Museum property. Here's a loco that would fit wonderfully at the end of a platform track in NYC or Washington, D.C.

glueck@maine.edu

> To my eye, however, two big standouts are in
> the loss column:
> --The serious loss--two or three times--of
> the opportunity to fully and securely
> preserve and restore the East Broad Top. I
> now formally call the current state of
> affairs "The Death March", in
> spite of the best efforts and intentions of
> the FEBT.

Sandy and all,

We've been over this a couple of times on RyPN and it seems to me as if this just isn't an actual physical "loss" as requested by the original poster.

The message ignores, minimizes, and attempts to marginalize the fact that more positive work and synergism is occurring now at EBT and with FEBT than at any time in the last 20 or 30 years -- all to rehash something that can't be changed. We can all wish that the past was different, but it isn't, and the fact is that the present contains something that the past never did: thousands, not hundreds, of hours of volunteer labor.

Let's see, now: Cars 18 and 29 snatched away from a slow death in Colorado? Check.

Masonry restoration, painting and glazing on the most critical parts of the irreplaceable Rockhill Furnace shop complex? Check.

Trackwork and switch restoration done, with one complete yard track now usable? Check.

Engine 15 flue work under way? Check.

Sorry, I just can't get excited over the woulda-coulda-shoulda. But I can get excited over the 2004 work-session schedule.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.



cupper@att.net

> We've been over this a couple of times on
> RyPN and it seems to me as if this just
> isn't an actual physical "loss" as
> requested by the original poster.

Sorry, I didn't get the feeling that he was asking for actual hardware. I sat and thought on the question for two hours, and realized (in my opinion, of course) that lost opportunities were in some cases greater than the actual concrete loss of things.

> The message ignores, minimizes, and attempts
> to marginalize the fact that more positive
> work and synergism is occurring now at EBT
> and with FEBT than at any time in the last
> 20 or 30 years -- all to rehash something
> that can't be changed. We can all wish that
> the past was different, but it isn't, and
> the fact is that the present contains
> something that the past never did:
> thousands, not hundreds, of hours of
> volunteer labor.

If we're going to take that kind of attitude, then indeed this whole thread should be deleted now, as the whole darned subject matter is "woulda coulda shoulda" that can't be changed. (Heck, the whole twists of fate that let the EBT survive until now are something we can't change, either.)

Au contraire. Remember the quote "those who do not study the past are condemned to repeat it"? If nothing else, studying the lost opportunities helps us to understand what happened, why the opportunities were lost, and can help us to prepare for a future.

Yes, the FEBT is doing wonderful things. I've donated to them, and hope to do so more in the future. But on the other hand, until/unless I see more convincing signs that a transition of the property from a family heirloom to an independent, stand-alone nonprofit foundation is under way or has been explicitly planned, I cannot bring myself to commit to the salvation of the property. The Kovalchiks can profess their love of the property and the railroad all they want, but there is, as far as we know, nothing whatsoever in place to prevent the family or its heirs from selling the whole damn thing to a developer, another scrapper, or Disney (just for wild examples). Yes, the FEBT efforts are good and well, and I thank them--hopefully someday they may actually become the owners or operators of the whole thing. But until such protection is explicitly in place, I can't afford to get sentimental. Put such protection in place, and I'll be signing up for the monthly car pool from Baltimore to Orbisonia to add sweat equity, I guarantee you--and I can also rapidly fill up another car pool to boot.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> What about the caboose? Railroading doesn't
> seem the same without its "punctuation
> mark".

Here's another: Railroad management that came from the ranks of working rails rather than from MBA programs.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Well GE, I see a few critial decades of industrial development passed while I was otherwise engaged today.

I had a job as an apprentice helper with an old army buddy of my dads in a steel mill back in the good old bad old days, and even at that tender age I couldn't see how they could afford to make steel if they paid me (who knew nothing and simply swept up the shop) the high wage I received. If a light buld burned out, we couldn't change it - had to call the unon electrician. It wasn't a sweat shop by any imaginary stretch.

I was reflecting on British history - was it Churchill that warned about the dangers of an economy based on taking in each others laundry?

It is a fine thing indeed to have trading partners wealthy enough to buy American goods - but it is only workable if we actually still make goods to sell them. Can we raise the tide to float all ships by sinking ours in the process?

Is the current "busy" trend in railroading as fragile as the dot com bubble? And, why shouldn't railroads take LCL business away from truckers?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Ah yes the bad old good daze ...we lost a little on every ton we made but made it up on volume! ...cash flow you know. We can no longer get away with forcing high priced mother country goods on our colonies ...they caught on awhile back and turned the tables on us. We can export MickyD franchises and import hard goods from emerging nations. We can crank up the prices on the stock market, as a place to stick our hard won savings and never notice the lack of earnings ...don't worry at the end of the month another 12 billion 401K dollars will have to be invested somewhere. The accursed industrial slaves that were supposed to be killed off in the brutal industrial atmosphere end up surviving to unplanned advanced old age dramatically increasing unsupportable trailing costs for what remains of our industry causing contract defaults and the cute trick of bankruptcy to reemerge without such nonsense ...don't worry because the Gummint came up with the PBGC to utilize tax dollars to cover these shortfalls. Health Care and Geriatric Medicine become major growth industries along with big and bigger cruise ships. Please note that all of the above really lead into a stable economy with a solid glistening future ... in the best of all possible worlds! The only on topic thing about all this is that the railroads get to carry the load ...and streetcars are coming back as automobiles begin to choke thenselves to death.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

If you gents would be so kind, it might be best to get this conversation back to railway preservation at this point...

eledbetter@rypn.org

> Would the preservation of a more complete UP
> gas turbine unit than the #18 fall into this
> time frame?

I don't think so - weren't the turbines taken out of service and stripped in the late 1960's or early 1970's? On a related note, how complete is the turbine at Ogden?

Frank Hicks

Below: In-progress cosmetic restoration of UP #18; photo taken about four months ago


F-Hicks@wiu.edu

> If you gents would be so kind, it might be
> best to get this conversation back to
> railway preservation at this point...

Sorry Erik - but you see, in a sense we were talking about railway preservation in terms of cause and effect, changeing business cycles, etc. And not a flame included!

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I don't think so - weren't the turbines
> taken out of service and stripped in the
> late 1960's or early 1970's? On a related
> note, how complete is the turbine at Ogden?

> Frank Hicks

> Below: In-progress cosmetic restoration of
> UP #18; photo taken about four months ago

The Ogden turbine was beautifully restored cosmetically back in the late '80s, and is cosmetically complete (e.g. A-unit, B-unit, tender, etc.). However, many of the interior components were removed in Kansas City.


clacey@hebervalleyrr.org

> Watching (and surviving) the decline of the
> steel industry from 1966 to date from the
> inside I saw a little different picture from
> the one you have painted. It would appear
> that you have stretched conditions from the
> turn of the century into that time period. I
> saw folks making $50K to $100K/year with
> full benefits (living to ripe old ages) in
> conditions having a lower accident frequency
> then your house.

*I specifically said these industries were BUILT ON the backs of wage slaves. Can I humbly point out that almost NONE of the specific industries I referred to actually survived in the United States once they were forced to pay the enormous wages you described? (Yes, there were also increased costs in making the work environment safer.) If we examine this issue too closely, however, we get locked into a vicious discussion of whether everything we buy in a Target, Wal-Mart, CarMax, etc. should be made in our native country or not, for the "protection" of American jobs--and I farcically note how that policy could be driven to the state, county, and city level for exactly the same reasons. Don't even bring up the discussions of whether or not a Nissan truck built in America is benefitting America or not, or whether we should be importing oil.

We saw the same thing happen to railroads. Branch lines and passenger train operations stayed in place because the "common good" was a greater concern than some corporation's profits, and railroads were forced to retain brakemen, firemen, etc. far longer than necessary. Today, railroads survive and even prosper because they have finally been able to answer to the "invisible hand" of capitalism and use technology to reduce labor costs.

I saw rail being rolled,
> wheels and axles made, structural steel for
> bridges, skyscrapers, railroad locomotives,
> cars, cables, bombs, nuts bolts and brillo
> pads (a difficult application). And you know
> what, the majority of the zillions of tons
> of materials moved, moved on railroads. So
> now all this traffic has been replaced by
> containers from China and seaway traffic has
> jumped due to imported steel. If you are
> shortsighted enough to think the switch to a
> "service" ecomomy has a rosy
> future, I feel sorry for you ..and for the
> folks that have to make a decent wage in
> this "brave new world". This great
> island of prosperity can grow on the backs
> of emerging nations and cheap
> transportation, NOT.

So you're perfectly willing to pay a "decent wage" to someone in your native country, but not to a poor resident of, say, South Africa, Argentina, Sri Lanka, or Mexico?

This is actually an interesting discussion that would be terrific for a high school or college class visiting a railroad museum, if you think about it. Should Pennsy and Reading have bought Baldwins simply because they were located on their rail lines? What about "U.S. content" laws that got Bombardier to set up a Vermont assembly plant?

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net