> Having said that: If anyone is able to latch
> onto ex-SR 2-6-0 2100 before she goes into
> the melting pot, I'm offering a cab ride, 10
> lbs of pulled pork BBQ and a case of
> Cheerwine when she's sitting on the Spencer
> turntable...sigh.

MINAZ #1413, 2-6-0, Alco Cooke 2114, built 1891, last reported at Jesus Rabi mill (Matanzas), dismantled for repair 3/1997; ex-Evansville & Terre Haute 50, later Louisville, Evansville & St. Louis (Part of SR) 2100. Reportedly in REALLY bad shape, and more of an Indiana loco than a SR one.

But BBQ is BBQ..........

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Hey Jim,

Don't forget, that 20 pounds of pork comes with its respective resteraunt's signature sauce, and that's what will be Josh's problem. =)

Hayes S.

Josh-If I were you, i'd pick Garys or Lexington # 1. Best for taste and sauce.

> Ok, Josh, I'll up it to 20...your choice of
> Parkers in Wilson, Stamey's in Greensboro,
> Lexington No. 1, Gary's in China Grove
> (source of our Rail Days Saturday evening
> BBQ) Bridges in Shelby and Green River
> (mustard sauce influenced by closeness to
> S.C.).


crzhaze@rrmail.com

Dear Superheater,

I could post a response to your opinions(did not see one fact in your posting). This board is involved with railroad preservation.

I'd be more then willing to exchange political views on our Cuban policy off-board. Please contact me at the above posted E-mail address, and we can have some fun discussing our views.

So..., please leave your political bent at the door, and lets talk preservation and history.

Thanks to the rest for making this thread informative and not biting at Superheaters hook.

Jimmy "B"
Reno, NV

> As much as this board is dedicated to RR
> preservation, lets not forget what (who) is
> the problem in Cuba.

> For four decades one individual has turned
> what should be a small paradise into a
> wasteland and reduced a bright and
> industrious people into scavengers to
> maintain the ruthlessly enforced myth of the
> socialist paradise. Only a fawning idiot
> with all the sophistication of an awestruck
> schoolgirl like Barbara Walters or some
> assorted ninnies from Hollyweird would think
> of Castro as anything more than a
> "target of opportunity" to be
> eliminated.

> The great tragedy of Cuba isn't the
> disappearance of the scraps of our exported
> industrial halcyon (when we still can't seem
> to persuade our own citizenry that the
> domestic reminders of the past matter,
> except for a tiny few)- Its the
> disappearance of PEOPLE who dare speak ill
> of the fuhrer, er leader.

> Every field needs ethics- and I realize much
> of this thread is daydreaming-assuming we
> were actually capable of raising the money
> to repatriate a locomotive and then doing an
> end run around the embargo would be a crime
> against humanity if the proceeds supported
> this "government". In addition it
> would be a crime against this nation.

> Finally, what about all the stuff that's
> ALREADY here and rotting in parks? What a
> waste to spend money to bring something back
> when it could be spent in preservation.

> Lets be honest, outside a few engines that
> went there second-hand, whats in Cuba has
> little significance relative to what we
> can't take of now. Charity begins at home,
> folks.


lassen.logger@worldnet.att.net

> The point of my post was not to be polemic. However, I may have obscured pertinent FACTS with my poison quill.

As an aside, I object to the idea that it is necessary or desireable to remove political considerations from discussions about preservation. The very notion of significance depends on your political viewpoint:

However, in the interest of comity and clarity, I will address your desire for FACTS, publicly, for those who might share your perspective.

Here are the FACTS you have to deal with:

1.) It is U.S. federal trade policy, with very limited exception to have an embargo of trade with Cuba. Again, I realize that much of this is idle day-dreaming, however, it is a federal crime to trade with Cuba outside very limited parameters.

2.) The second, more relevant FACT is that capital for preservation is quite scarce (inadequate).

All endeavors are subject to economic limitations. Even if all your projects are funded-every dollar spent on A could also be spent on B so there’s always “opportunity cost”. As we saw with the PA’s, this can be an rather expensive and time-consuming process, once the folks that have the item see the prospects of Americans willing to part with greenbacks.

Day after day, this board is filled with accounts of lost opportunities. In the past year the topics have included the impending loss of the former LNE Pen Argyl facility and the DL&W roundhouse in Kingston, PA and the fire in Middletown NY, the former D&H RS-3’s sent to the scapper- this is just the stuff in my narrow anthracite road scope of interest. Just a few days ago-we had a post titled something like “disturbing trend”.

In an unlimited world, I’d like to repatriate (from all countries) Vulcan locomotives-including the “Skyliners” of the Turkish State Railways (manufactured in Wilkes Barre PA, tested and shipped on the Lehigh Valley).

It is however a limited world filled with “sub-optimal” and “constrained choices”. So long as we have locomotives HERE rotting away, we should concentrate on the stabilization and restoration of those engines first. More concretely: If you had an extra couple mil, would you trade with Mr. Castro (I’ll defer to your sensitivies to be apolitical) or lend a hand to the folks @ the B&O museum?

IÂ’m not a historian, but IÂ’d bet a C-Note that by any method of determining significance, any of the C&O 2700Â’s needing TLC are more significant that something that spent its entire operating career hauling sugar cane in a foreign land.

I remain convinced. As long as structures, rolling stock, even the ephemera on EBAY remains at risk- we are overlooking the domestic log in our eye while worrying about the speck abroad.

I do hope IÂ’ve addressed your concerns adequately.


superheater@rrmail.com

> In all reality much of the steam in Cuba is
> worn out and seriously shot. If anyone wants
> to get serious and get some good operating
> locomotives here, they should go to China.

> You can buy 2-10-2s, 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s.
> There are some 2-6-2s there also. A couples
> USA 2-8-0s are there also. Price would be
> reasonable and shipping around $7-9 grand to
> San Fran. (No UPS will not handle them).

> These locos can be as young as built in
> 1989!!!. I was there in 1986 and they had
> 10,000 locos running then. They are down to
> about 2,000 operating now.

> It would cost nearly as much to ship the
> junk from Cuba and that is what you would
> get. Do you want to operate your newly
> acquired loco or just plant one in your yard
> and watch it rust away there?

> It is nice to dream. We can do that here in
> the good ole USA. But today the almighty
> dollar is king. No management wants to hear
> about something that cost money or doesn't
> make money.

> Unfortunately the future here in the USA for
> the running of big steam on major Railroads
> is about non-existant. I hate to sound down
> on steam but I was involved with full size
> steam since 1964. Working on them and
> running them. Things have gotten worse every
> year since the Claytors died.

> I have been involved in 1" scale live
> steam since 1971 and 6 years ago I have
> settled into 1&1/2 inch scale live
> steam. I can control the operation and
> ownership of steam. In all my years involved
> with steam this is the most rewarding its
> ever been. I can run them anywhere in the
> USA and whenever I want.
I've been to Cuba each of the past 3 years. Lots of treasures still down there, including some that are actually in excellent running condition. There's also a lot of junk that's been rusting away for a couple decades. Hopefully those are the only ones being scrapped. The Cubans know the tourist value of these locomotives. Most mills that operated steam keep a couple operable to fire up for tourist groups. Other engines are being preserved at regional "museum mills" Gregario Manalich mill near Havana is still all steam, with 5 30" gauge steamers in daily service.

bas1210@comcast.net

Politics as they relate to preservation are withing the scope of this board. As Superheater points out, we will inveitable debate federal, state and local spending decisions as they relate to preservation.

That said, I do think a broad critique of the political structures of a foreign country is beyond the scope of this board. That kind of discussion can quickly spiral into a general debate about wage differentials, safety practices, labor standards, political liberty, free speech, and a myriad of other issues that would cause this board to become no different than one devoted to, say, the Presidential election.

On the specific subject of Cuba, pointing out the impact of existing US Treasury Department regulations on any hypothetical repatriation scheme is relevant. However, a general brief against Castro and his government is not relevant. If the point one wants to make is that one personally feels that purchasing items from a government like Castro's is not a morally defensible thing to do, that would be relevant, but the relevant point can be made in one sentence. "In my opinion it is not moral to do business with Castro's regime." Opinion registered, enough said.

Also, we strongly discourage flaming. In my mind this includes "advance flames"--that is, ridiculing in advance the arguments of prospective opponents of a point of view, and using interpreate langauge to do so. Phrases like "fawning idiot" and "ninny" constitute advanced flames.



eledbetter@rypn.org

" self propelled scrap iron makes any sense at all. The Chinese stuff brand new suffered from numerous issues with craftsmanship and material quality. According to Wardale, brand new engines from Datong literally had pieces falling off due to the poor quality control (read'we may work long and we may work hard, but we're not responsible if it really works'). I have had experiences retailing Chinese equipment(I've repented) and if farm machinery is an indication of their RR equipment, just 'cause its shaped like a locomotive doesn't mean it is one. Besides, where you gonna run a 150ton Chinese engine?
The beauty of Cuban Steam is that most engines are US made catalog units of a manageable size. Yes, some of it can be classified as worn out, but some of it ain't. Alot of it is small enough that if you need a new boiler for it, that is a realistic option.


Lorija799@aol.com

The subject heading says it all. It was true in 1950, 1960, 1970 etc.

Preserving anything especially lage Industrial aftifacts is a tough go!

My favorite Cuban engine it the New York elevated engine. A Chicago engine exists in the St Louis collection and a second one in Cuba. That's it!

Imagine the elevateds puff puffing along 30 feet over the streets, before electrification in about 1902. They must have been something!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Operation is not the only reason to return a Cuban
steam engine to the United States,

There are several examples of last of their kind engines down there. The New york Ontario & Western comes to mind.

Sataic engines in a building have an important story to tell. Especially the smaller lines, not everything was Southern Pacific or Union Pacific.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Anyone know if the Grafton and Upton steamer is still there?

> Anyone know if the Grafton and Upton steamer
> is still there?

Doubt it. UK's Industrial Railway Society list has it last sighted derelict at MINAZ 504 Ecuador mill in March 1990, believed to have been scrapped by March 1991.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

My advice: Go see what's left which is still operating in Cuba! Otherwise, forget about the stuff which is going to scrap. We have enough steam locomotives rusting in parks and railroad museums here in the U.S. Unless it's absolutely the only existing locomotive example of some special type or previous US railroad owner, I say let it go to its inevitable fate.
The last thing we need is a failed fundraiser for re-importing some American locomotive from Cuba which once ran on the long-ago Dry Rot & Western RR. I think in the next 20 years we'll be doing the same as the Cubans with some of our "preserved" locomotives.

> My advice: Go see what's left which is still
> operating in Cuba!

*Fine advice--IF you're a Canadian, Mexican, Briton, or a citizen of almost ANY other country. Americans are specifically barred from travel to Cuba. I could say more, but then I'd be off on a thoroughly off-topic political rant on the failures of American foreign policy versus the successes of British/etc. policy. And I give Erik, etc. enough heartburn as it is.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Actually, Americans AREN'T barrred from travelling to Cuba; What the law basically says is Americans are prohibited from spending currency there. You can easily confirm this by contacting the State Department or visiting their web site. BTW, I know this from first-hand experience.

> *Fine advice--IF you're a Canadian, Mexican,
> Briton, or a citizen of almost ANY other
> country. Americans are specifically barred
> from travel to Cuba.

> Actually, Americans AREN'T barrred from
> travelling to Cuba; What the law basically
> says is Americans are prohibited from
> spending currency there. You can easily
> confirm this by contacting the State
> Department or visiting their web site. BTW,
> I know this from first-hand experience.

While checking the regs don't forget the US Treasury Department Office of Foreign Assets Control--it's OFAC that enforces all this.


eledbetter@rypn.org