Mask wearing on a tourist line?

Robert Opal · **Posted:** Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:20 pm

I think the Federal orders are pretty clear. If you are providing transportation for the public (in a train, airplane, bus, ride share, or pretty much anything else other than a private auto), the masking requirements apply to your passengers. I've seen some arguments that the mandate shouldn't apply because tourist railroads aren't "common carriers". But there's nothing in the Federal orders that limits the Federal masking mandates to "common carriers". Tourist railroads hold themselves out to provide rides ("transportation") to the general public, and that's all that's relevant. Further, many tourist railroads, while not common carriers, are still considered "railroads" subject to Federal railroad regulation.

The one exception to this relevant to tourist roads is that, under CDC guidelines, masking is NOT required for passengers in "outdoor areas of a conveyance (like on a ferry or the top deck of a bus)". Presumably, this exception would apply to an open car on a tourist road (like an open gondola with or without seats). But I wouldn't expect TSA would apply this exception to an enclosed car just because it had windows that open.

I think one of the areas of confusion here is that the relationship between State and Federal law may not be fully understood. Many States have relaxed their masking mandates and, under these State requirements at least, masking would no longer be required on tourist trains. But Federal requirements trump (no relation to "Trump") inconsistent State requirements. So, if State requirements don't require masking on tourist trains, but Federal requirements do, the Federal requirements govern.

Clear as mud?

p51 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:24 pm

Robert Opal wrote:

Federal requirements trump inconsistent State requirements. So, if State requirements don't require masking on tourist trains, but Federal requirements do, the Federal requirements govern.

I've had to tell several riders not only the FRA makes the call and the state can't overule it, but I've also had to tell them we have had a FRA guy take a ride without a mask to see if someone would say something. Thankfully, the conductor did, which is how we found out.

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1086

A Friday, June 25, 2021 Wall Street Journal article:

Quote:

TEL AVIV—About half of adults infected in an outbreak of the Delta variant of Covid-19 in Israel were fully inoculated with the Pfizer Inc. vaccine, prompting the government to reimpose an indoor mask requirement and other measures to contain the highly transmissible strain.

Preliminary findings by Israeli health officials suggest about 90% of new infections were likely caused by the Delta variant, according to Ran Balicer, who leads an expert advisory panel on Covid-19 for the government. Children under 16, most of whom haven’t been vaccinated, accounted for about half of those infected, he said.

The government this week expanded its vaccination campaign to include all 12- to 15-year-olds after a jump in infections among schoolchildren in a town in central Israel. It has since quickly spread geographically and to other groups of the population.

The number of cases in Israel is relatively low by global standards. But new cases of Covid-19 rose to over 200 on Thursday from around 10 a day for most of June.

Israel is now reassessing its Covid-19 regulations after moving to open up its society and economy following multiple lockdowns last year.

“The entrance of the Delta variant has changed the transmission dynamics,” said Prof. Balicer, who is also the chief innovation officer for Israel’s largest health-management organization, Clalit.

Link to the full article:
Delta Variant Outbreak in Israel Infects Some Vaccinated Adults - Government reimposes indoor mask requirement in light of preliminary findings

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:40 pm

p51 wrote:

I've also had to tell them we have had a FRA guy take a ride without a mask to see if someone would say something. Thankfully, the conductor did, which is how we found out.

So........................ entrapment via deliberately violating their own safety edicts.............

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1799

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

p51 wrote:

I've also had to tell them we have had a FRA guy take a ride without a mask to see if someone would say something. Thankfully, the conductor did, which is how we found out.

So........................ entrapment via deliberately violating their own safety edicts.............

Pretty sure it’s against the rules to set up a red flag in the middle of a track for no reason... and yet I’ve been coming around a curve on a shove move and found just that!

One man’s entrapment is another man’s “efficiency check” :)

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:40 pm

This Just In on Arizona midday newscasts:

Senators are asking the CDC and TSA to update and clarify rules on mask-wearing on public transportation, including planes, TRAINS, and automobiles...............

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/masks- ... d/1026619/

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/560 ... sk-mandate

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:51 pm

Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

Pretty sure it’s against the rules to set up a red flag in the middle of a track for no reason... and yet I’ve been coming around a curve on a shove move and found just that!

One man’s entrapment is another man’s “efficiency check” :)

If I, a civilian, set up a red flag or highway flare in the middle of the track for "no good reason," are there actually written laws (not RR rules) that dictate the prosecution, fines and punishment? (Not that I recommend the practice....) In theory, even local or state police might call it "an incident of free speech on private property" and defer prosecution to RR police.....

Whereas under the quite-prosecutable TSA regulations, the supposed purpose of mask-wearing is to protect other people, and someone coming onto a train without a mask, vaccinated or no, is by that act "endangering the public" (supposedly, by the pretext of the mask mandate in the first place), one step removed (if even that) from firing a gun in a bank to see how security and police react--or so we're told....................

It's stuff like this that serves to fuel suspicion, resentment, and mistrust of ALL government regulation and enforcement, not just supposedly "temporary" COVID measures.

j6677 · **Joined:** Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:02 am **Posts:** 26

Yikes.

p51 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:48 pm

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

p51 wrote:

I've also had to tell them we have had a FRA guy take a ride without a mask to see if someone would say something. Thankfully, the conductor did, which is how we found out.

So........................ entrapment via deliberately violating their own safety edicts.............

Hey, take it up with the FRA.
All that righteous indignation means jack squat when the Feds decide you broke their (clearly communicated to the railroad world) rules.
One of our engineers had a FRA guy talk to him a while back and the story I heard was the FRA guy (maybe even the same one for all I know) tried to get our engineer to say he had his cell phone on and within reach. The engineer said it was over in his grip and turned off if the FRA really needed to make a call.
Right answer, our engineer was told.
I also know a guy who maintains airplanes and said the feds (I assume the NTSB and FAA) are always coming around asking questions to trip people up.
"This is MY world," the Fed will say; nothing new there.
Annoying? Yeah.
Surprising? Not if you've ever dealt with the government before.

Nova55 · **Joined:** Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm **Posts:** 597

There defiantly needs to be some soon clarification on this from the FRA. As more and more states and county's are rolling back the rules, its going to be really hard to keep enforcing them on trains (and transportation), and its the volunteers that are going to be made out to seem like the bad guys.

Since the rules were relaxed 2 months ago, I have seen virtually nobody wearing masks anymore, outside of a handful of people at the food store.

p51 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:04 pm

Nova55 wrote:

There defiantly needs to be some soon clarification on this from the FRA. As more and more states and county's are rolling back the rules, its going to be really hard to keep enforcing them on trains (and transportation), and its the volunteers that are going to be made out to seem like the bad guys.

We don't have issues that I've ever seen as far being the 'bad guys', as we honestly tell them it's the feds. Once we started telling them that, I've seen a lot less pushback than before.
As for mask use, I keep hearing really bad things about this new strain and how we might have to start back at square one.

EJ Berry · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:13 pm

Trainmasters and Road Foremen have been placing a lighted fusee between the rails for over a century. Set up signals so train must move at restricted speed, then place a fusee down. If the train overruns it, the engineer has a problem.

Phil Mulligan

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1799

EJ Berry wrote:

Trainmasters and Road Foremen have been placing a lighted fusee between the rails for over a century. Set up signals so train must move at restricted speed, then place a fusee down. If the train overruns it, the engineer has a problem.

Phil Mulligan

Or the conductor! If doing a shove move. (Spoken from experience!)

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:47 pm

Nova55 wrote:

There defiantly needs to be some soon clarification on this from the FRA.

This is a hideously common typo/spell-check error, and I hesitate to bring it up........

I believe you meant "definitely."

The LAST thing we want in a difference of opinion with Federal regulators is "defiance."

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1086

The Southern Nevada Health District (aka the Board of Health for Las Vegas and the rest of Clark County, Nevada) is reporting Covid-19 "breakthrough cases" which they define as:

Quote:

Breakthrough cases are U.S. residents with a SARS-CoV2 RNA or antigen detected on respiratory specimen collected greater than or equal to 14 days after completing the primary series of an FDA authorized COVID-19 vaccine (i.e., complete vaccination). Complete vaccination is two doses of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine or one dose of the Johnson and Johnson (Janssen) vaccine.

The health district is posting the details of their breakthrough cases once a week:
COVID-19 Breakthrough Cases
Yesterday, July 15, 2021, the health district reported a total of 122 breakthrough hospitalizations and 20 breakthrough deaths (18 of them were hospitalized) just in Clark County, Nevada.

I attempted to calculate probabilities of hospitalization and death, but I can't find the current number of people in the country who are fully vaccinated. Once source does say that 883,293 people in the county have received both dosages as of today, so 883,293 will be the number of people fully-vaccinated in Clark County two weeks from now.