Scrapping is not the solution and will not be the solution once the city confiscates the property. The city is already in a heap of bad publicity that is growing worse by the day. God forbid the person who orders everything scrapped as you would probably have a angry mob outside your office demanding your head on a platter. You're phone as well as your computer would be having a meltdown. You think someone is going to walk into that buzz saw? No way.

The city must auction all assets they seize. They can not (and courts have ruled all over the country on this issue) give preference to a company, business, or otherwise where these assets are going. This is a buffer to keep paid off politicians from giving assets to people they know for a kickback of the money. In this case they simply can not give everything to the scrappers. Likewise when 30 million dollar bridge is going to be built the city can not give it to the construction company owned by the sons Mayor. All projects that are funded with tax payers dollars must be bid on. Of course the lowest bid to build this project gets the contract. This is a good system the keeps corruption to a minimum.

Scrapping would at the very minimum take many months if not the rest of the year. Many items at this site are very problematic for scrappers such as some of the locomotive engines which are made from cast iron. Cast iron can not be cut with a torch and neither can stainless steel. Stainless steel must be cut with a plasma cutter which can only penetrate about 3/16 of inch. Many of the passenger cars, and locomotives have asbestos wrapped around the piping which a torch can not cut and can not be brought into the scrapyard. Electric locomotives typically have PCB contamination. Journal box oil must be drained and pads disposed of properly.

The city will auction everything and will be millions of dollars richer in the process. Everything will be hauled away in about a week. Of course there will be many pieces that have no bids or bids for 1 dollar. These will indeed go the scrappers.

You are correct. The scrapping is being done out of revenge to stop anyone else from getting those pieces. It could all have been left for the sheriff, but the egos of ITM trumped any concern for longevity of the equipment.

That is the saddest fact.

All the advice about owning your land, preparing for disaster, etc is 100% correct but it doesn’t change the fact that none of the ITM collection “needed” to be scrapped for any other reason than whim.

That’s the saddest part of a very sad story.

Rob

ITM agreed to the terms of the lease which obviates any idea of "unfairness".

Even after being given extensions, ITM still managed somehow to do nothing in the way of moving their equipment out in an organized, timely way.

The city won't make millions off of paying to scrap what isn't relocated and cleaning up afterwards - in fact, it will cost them money. Just reclaiming their land after the lease was broken has already been an expensive hassle for the taxpayers. Dealing with a bunch of rusty white elephants containing hazardous materials that nobody wanted enough to move for preservation after the fact is even worse - and we will certainly see that happen to some extent within the next few weeks, depending on the extent that we as an industry can act rather than whine.

Intentions don't matter - emotional ideas about historic value don't matter - WE don't matter. Due process was followed and that's what matters. Just because I think my pair of deuces should win over your full house doesn't mean it actually does...…. when you join in the game you need to understand and play by the rules. If you can't do that, don't play.

What Dave said.

May I add, having gone through an "eviction" ourselves, if it happens to you, don't bite all the hands that feed you i.e. your volunteers, landlord and political subdivisions. The fact that we stayed on friendly terms enabled us to get two extensions to make our arrangements, buy property and refurbish its track, move materials and equipment, make equipment movable that hadn't turned a wheel in 20+ years, take up track, assemble a hospital train that would pass muster and make the final move in one day. All with a pretty small volunteer crew. The end result was that we now own our property. Yeah, it cost a lot of money and put a huge strain on our finances but I can say we're better for it and we still have good relations with all involved. Granted, our collection was a lot smaller but it's highly likely we would have been in the same boat if we would have handled ourselves as ITM seems to have done.

You only presume the "bad publicity" based on railfan forums such as these, and we have an emotional stake at work here. It's not "bad publicity" for city officials until local newspapers and TV stations, possibly featuring footage and photos of past Fair Trains and 587 under steam, are doing investigative reports and headline stories on the "fiasco" and how it happened, with the end result of local officials having to duck reporters lying in ambush for them to ask them pointed, loaded questions, "gotcha TV' style.

Instead, there's been NO coverage in the local newspaper, The Times, since June 29th after the original judgement was handed down. There hasn't been a story on this in the local TV station, WTHR, since a Dec. 27th story on the original decision to "evict." The Indianapolis Star newspaper has run several stories over the past two years on the Fair Train, the December eviction decision, the final two-week deadline, Museum officials accusing Noblesville of wanting to "steal" their trains, and now video of the "35-ton steam locomotive" (actually just 587's boiler) being removed to a truck, but the overall list of stories--including the Museum being sued to clean up leaking oil drums--does not paint the Museum in a positive, sympathetic light that would be necessary to rally public support for them:
https://www.indystar.com/search/Transpo ... %20Museum/

In order for there to be "bad publicity" that would impact public opinion of the Museum, there would have to be news reporting that makes City officials look bad. I haven't seen it save for the usual overly-emotional, underinformed crank foamers on social media and online railfan forums. Instead, we get the well-reasoned "lessons to be learned" lecture from Brothers Keefe, Wrinn, and others.



I'm sorry, Rob, but no. I have to concur with the other cynical interpretation: The wording of the court order does, indeed, specify that anything left behind will be removed AT COST TO the former owner, and they are being proactive in doing it themselves before someone else does it for them at triple the cost TO THEM.

If I have a "rolling scrap heap" automobile or truck terminally broken down on a city street, and two days later the city slaps a sticker on it giving me 48 hours to remove it or they'll remove it and bill me for the towing, plus the tickets, PLUS whatever punitive administrative expenses they decide to add on, are you expecting me to put it in Hemmings Motor News or even Craigslist to find someone who might want the engine? Screw that. I'm just gonna dial up the numbers on the illegally-nailed-up "JUNK CARS TOWED FREE!!!!" signs that grow like weeds in bad city neighborhoods, first one to get there gets it, now now now.

The evidence I have seen from those ON THE SCENE indicate that 1) the pieces thus far scrapped, save for the Milwaukee SW1 that really requires an explanation, were "hopeless cases" beyond restoration that even ITM acquired as parts sources and not historical exhibits; 2) they have NOT been wantonly scrapping desirable, historic pieces (again, save for that SW1); and 3) they are actively working with other would-be "saviors", including Fort Wayne, Kentucky Steam, Age of Steam, and others probably not named yet, instead of wantonly scrapping out of "if we can't have it, no one can" spite.



^^THIS.^^

Being on the site I 100 % affirm your paragraphs to Rob.

The stuff they scrapped is what Rio Vista would call too far gone. Speaking of tha the NKP wood cab has one more day; make an offer.

UPDATES:

I am getting updates from those "in the trenches of the battlefield," a few of them very familiar names here, updating the statuses of certain pieces. I'm taking the discretion of not naming names here until they publicly acknowledge their new ownership, and I'm certain that that won't happen until pieces are off the property or at new homes.

The FEC 90 and Nickel Plate 1 office cars have new owners. They are presumed safe. The former supposedly sold for $750.

Quotes for lifting/trucking equipment have been in the $30-50,000 range for the locomotives. It's likely that the "crisis" has imposed greater expense; reportedly at least one crane contractor is subcontracting out much of "his" work.

It appears that at least some of the confusion, scrapping, etc. may well be due to miscommunication, of the "left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing" sort among ITM BOD members.

There were apparently at least three firm, mid-six-figure offers to buy the entire collection, with favorable buy-back terms for ITM. The last was supposedly withdrawn when the first torch was lit. One of the reported offering parties is now cherry-picking "leftovers." The organization on behalf of whom another donor was offering to get the entire collection is also now involved in the "rescue" effort.

The more I hear about the small details like this from sources I am inclined to trust and take seriously, the more my blood boils. I gotta take a break from this balderdash now.....

Unfortunatetly, Robert and Sandy, my comments about revenge scrapping were not a theory; they reflect the exact words of ITM leaders. Call it spite, call it revenge, but it is sadly a part of the story. It is a very unfortunate fact.

And I have run into several instances over the decades where what one high official of an operation is willing to say to your face is officially contradicted by others "in charge" or on the Board.

VP of Operations: "We REALLY want that [piece of rolling stock/station/roundhouse]!"
Board's attorney: "Not in a million years under THOSE terms, we sure as Hell don't!"
President: "It would require re-tweaking our mission statement, and then we'd have to discuss the conditions...."

There's an old saying that goes "Never attribute solely to malice what can be attributed to sheer incompetence." ITM's management has already demonstrated incompetence to the point of malfeasance. We don't have to add malice to the list, and absent official declaration of said policy by officials, I for one am not wont to do so.

Sandy,

I can only go by what ITM has said. Equipment could have been left to the sheriff to take and then have the town deal with. Instead, ITM has chosen to play “screw you” games and insist that they will return the land with no trains.

So, if you following along at home, 1) equipment could have been left behind and 2) ITM has decided to ignore that and use the lease as an excuse to return the land empty.

At this point, one might opine that there’s nothing wrong going on here. I would probably agree. However, ITM officials have told several friends of mine who are actively trying to move equipment out that they refuse to leave anything behind which Noblesville could use as part of a new rail attraction.

In other words, they would rather torch it than leave it behind.

Their words, not mine: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1556113 ... 513859274/

Rob

"In other words, they would rather torch it than leave it behind."

I fail to see why they should leave something behind for somebody else to capitalize on. If they did, it would only encourage this sort of stuff in the future. I just wish I could get my mitts on 426, it would look good in tandem with a soon to be returned to service roster mate.

Holy cow!!! Can I bid $800???

+1 superheater



Later



Just for reference if FEC 90 is truly magnificent and a jewel of the national collection.

Using your thoughts here, then why should any railroad leave any equipment behind to be donated to a railroad museum.

ITM has shown, that they can still act like a bunch of spoiled children.

I am sure, that more than just railroad fans or preservatist are watching what is going on in Noblesville, Indiana with ITM.

So, what if the judge had ruled that the ITM overstayed there time and when he ruled back on June 29th, he istead ordered all the equipment destroyed? I bet your tone would change then. Atleast, at a sheriff's sale it would have another chance at life.

Hey, since when do people get to put words in my mouth? If only I knew a good lawyer who wasn't banned from this forum....