Replies to a few notes above:

1. The QJs do have the engineer sit on the left. The throttle is the reverse of a U.S. steam engine, i.e. you push it forward to go faster. Otherwise the controls aren't that different from a U.S. steam loco. The gauges are metric, not pounds (in kPa). The Susquehanna SJ had the controls built on the right and had its gauges changed to pounds, but the one at Boone and Scenic did not.

2. Having ridden and operated a QJ on the JiTong, I can say that the QJs were never operated over 35 or so mph, and even at that speed on the nearly-new JiTong they were very, very rough-riding engines. The coal they burned on the JiTong had the composition and heat of topsoil, so it will be interesting to see how well they run on even low-grade U.S. coal.

I don't think a QJ would work on the Grand Canyon - they couldn't keep up passenger schedules.

3. A union employee in a typical Class 1 RR shop would make more in an hour than many Chineese workers make in a month. I would think that overhauling an engine at, say, the Sheynang steel works, would be very cost-effective vs. having it done in the U.S.

Chris J.

I'm glad these locomotives are coming over, because I'd like to see one firsthand and have no interest in traveling to China. With that aside, however, I'll bet they will be fired up and used for a relatively short time, then parked without funds to repair them, just like the Swedish 4-6-0 in Maine and a couple dozen of our native locomotives that have been returned to service, then parked.

One thing that has not been mentioned is the appropriateness of 2-10-2's on passenger trains. Of course, the QJ's did haul passenger trains in China. In the U.S. however, they were considered as heavy freight power. But, I was just going through Ross B. Grenard's little book on the Colorado & Southern Standard gauge operation, and there on page 24 is a photo of C&S 2-10-2 #911 leading the first section of the COLORADO SPECIAL into Denver back in 1938 (photo by Richard H. Kindig.) Would like to know if any other photos exist of 2-10-2's on regularly scheduled passenger trains in the U.S.

Les

Les,
Check out the Grand Canyon branch of the AT&SF in AT&SF days. I believe that their 3800 class (?) 2-10-2s regularly pulled passenger trains on the line. SP used 2-10-2s has passenger helpers on the Coast Line and probably other places.

Why not import the labor to the U.S.? And some of the appropriate machinery. Chinese labor built the Central Pacific so why not use some to lower the price of a North American rebuild? :^) (Tongue firmly in cheek......)

Don C.

I have seen photographs of Illinois Central 2-10-2s on passenger trains, though I can't remember where. I also recall photos of Southern Railway Ss class 2-10-2s pulling the Carolina Special over Saluda (normally pulled by 4-8-2s). Recently, on RFD TV, they showed a video of a railfan weekend at Grand Canyon and included were shots of ATSF 2-10-2s at Grand Canyon village in the 40s and 50s.

There was a book about Saluda, I believe it was called Crossties Over Saluda, and if memory serves me correctly, that's where I saw the photos of the Ss engines.

Here's C&S 903 on a troop train south out of Denver, August 6, 1950:

http://photoswest.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_c ... 4+1715+2+3

And the 909 on its last excursion, to Fort Collins on June 30, 1957 (mis-captioned as 1959):

http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00007054+OP-7054
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00006715+OP-6715
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00007101+OP-7101

Not regularly scheduled trains, but passenger trains anyway. C&S 900-904 and the CB&Q engines they were derived from were similar in size to QJs.

Gents:

Thanks for the comments. Here are mine:

Bob - The 909 on the railfan excursion wouldn't count but the 903 on the troop train would because the 903 was assigned to the train by the railroad whereas the 909 was probably requested for the excursion by the railfan organization.

JW - The IC and Southern Ss class 2-10-2's would qualify and I sure would like to see those pictures. And also the video of the AT&SF 2-10-2's in regular passenger service on the Grand Canyon branch.

Don - As per the above, the Santa Fe 3800's would qualify but an SP 2-10-2 as a helper engine on a passenger train would not.

Now here's another question. Considering that a museum or tourist line might be interested in one of the QJ's for their operation, what should they consider changing on the engine to "Americanize" it? Remove the elephant ears? Substitue a Pyle National headlight or some other type? Or do what? Or just let it be a Chineese engine? Ah so!!!

Les

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind as well. Funny how a steam locomotive goes from "Fully restored" to "desperately needing restoriation" with a year or so, isn't it?

Photo from 2004:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=139781

Let's look at the factors of these loco's operating on your average tourist Railroad.

5-10 miles (if even that!) of secondary track with more cinders than ballast for trackbed, best suited for 15mph operations, maybe 30 if they are pushing their luck.

2-5 car trains with a 2-10-2?

Passenger loads just barely enough to break even with a diesel, let alone a steam loco.

Hmmm....I wonder if one of these could fit through the Wooddale or Mt Cuba Cut ...whaddya think Tom?.....they are getting those new bridges down there...haha.

Who would have the audacity to operate such a big loco on their short line.....

Oh... wait a minute....SRR and IRM operate 2-10-0's....


*Goes and stands in corner*

Hello all,

I have noticed there has been some talk about the cost factors of the Chinese steam locomotives.

I know in 1988 when the three 2-8-2's arrived in the US from China the total cost of the three locomotives was around $400,000. The cost to transport each locomotive from China to mainland USA was $88,000 in 1988.

According to an article in Trains magazine the cost to build a 2-8-2 SY was around $50,000 to $59,000 US dollars. A diesel was at least $150,000+.

I remember when the QJs were rebuilt to operate on the newer provincially owned railroad lines the cost to rebuild them was a few hundred thousand yen or $67,000 US dollars. The locomotives are usually rebuilt every 200,000 miles.

DM

Um, not exactly what I recall.... I think it was more like $400K EACH.

My recollection is that the VRR 1647 cost was $400K delivered to the pier in Camden, NJ; I think J. David can confirm that??

The K&K and VRR engines (and the NYSW loco in the Bay of Bengal) were purpose-built for US service, with right-hand drive and right-hand appliances, etc. The Iowa 2-8-2 was a stock, unmodified "road" sized Mike, not one of the "industrial" SY engines.

Current pricing is apparently $250K for a stock, unmodified, left-hand drive SY 2-8-2, with an FRA 1472-day inspection and some overhaul work (repairs as needed), landed at Houston (just like the 2-10-2s). That's a lot cheaper than fixing any 75-125-ton locomotive already here; it might be a bit "weird" with the left-hand drive and the funky cab/tender, but it's a real, live steam locomotive, and a lot newer metal than anything we have on hand.

Dennis, J. David, you guys are the knowlegable ones on all this--- speak up.

I have come to believe that the decision to phase out steam had nothing to do with technology and everything to do with geopolitical and economic considerations. Balance of trade, currency valuation and all that stuff.

Supposedly, the Chinese are in the market for 300, yes THREE HUNDRED,
nuclear power plants in the next 20 years. Anyone recognize the names GE, Westinghouse, ALSTOM or Siemens ?

Dave

I wonder if any of those wonderful RN 4-6-2 locomoive steam locomotives are still around in China? I know they were retired in 1990. If any of them in storage or museum.

DM

I'm pretty sure one was saved at the big museum in Shenyang.

Chris.