I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to say thank you to the many who have taken the trouble to post thier complimentary thoughts.
I was beginning to fear that this thread might end up hearing from only one voice from the Natterring Nabobs of Negativism, but I see that at least one other has joined the discussion and before it's over I'm guessing there'll be one or two more??? Actually that's a good thing, as nothing is totally one-sided and the Negatoids often spark healthy discussions that lead to improvements.
IMHO there is a very viable "industry" in our nation devoted to representing the history and current day role of railroading in America-and it is comprised of the hundreds of organizations found in the Annual Steam Directory and the membership roles of TRAIN and ARRM. I'm not sure of how many millions of dollars it generates annually or how many full time/part time jobs it represents, but I know its nothing to sneeze at and that most of the outfits do a credible job of giving the customer his moneys worth. My guess is that as our population ages over the next several decades that those in the industry who do a good job marketing themselves (i.e. Strasburg,NH&I,IRM.TVRM,Silverton,etc.,etc.) will be able to generate increasingly profitable years. Nostalgia sells--if its properly packaged and promoted.
To say that the run-bys at Port Jervis (which were enjoyed by approx.23,000 folks over the 3 yr. program) were only "preaching to the choir" shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire industry and its opportunities. Somewhere in the vicinity of 95% of those folks on the Pt. Jervis trips were "daisy pickers" and in a survey we did nearly 40% of them had never before ridden a train of any kind!!! I can testify to you that the vast majority of them were enthralled watching this piece of living history "do her thing" and some percentage of them became sufficiently "bitten" to get involved. The NH&I distributed promotional brochures on the trips and they saw a " significant" bump in sales from folks who were introduced to them on the Pt. Jervis trips. To parse the industry into independent segments shows a complete lack of marketing 101. To the general public (tomorrows customer) a steam engine is a steam engine--period. The more ways we can find to introduce it to the general public the better. The photo-runbys were conducted in such a manner that they were the safest part of the days activities. Everyone was grouped a very safe distance back from the track and kept there by a well trained and rehearsed crew of 40 men/women. Again, to imply that this hugely important part of the product should be avoided on account of the liability exposure it represents shows a total lack of understanding both its importance to the overall product, AND how to organize it so it is safe. IMHO- one of the main reasons (there are several) that the trips out of Scranton are so poorly patronized is the complete lack of run-bys (or run-bys that hardly qualify for the term), and thus a ticket holder never gets to see the machine he came to enjoy-- in action.
Mainline steam has gone through a rather dry period of late particularly in the greater Northeast for some very understandable reasons. Those few organizations who have been able to keep the flame still burning are due much credit and gratitude. I believe that the planets are beginning to align themselves so that in the next 10 or so years there will be a resurgeance of mainline steam across the land. More on that at another time/place.
Thanks again to all who have participated-- even the Negatoids!! Ross Rowland

Well, here's a fair and objective question:

Seeing as 614 is still awaiting repairs, and it's been a few years since Port Jervis (remember how Disney used to cycle its cartoon feature re-releases every seven years?).............

If another big steam loco were to show up at New Jersey Transit's doorstep proposing to recreate that magic once again on basically the same terms..... say, Milwaukee 261 looking for another paying gig for a trip east to Steamtown for the 2010 NRHS Convention, or Reading 2102, or Bessemer & Lake Erie 643 (okay, there may be a speed issue there, but you get the idea)............ Or even CP 2816 or Nickel Plate 765 or Ohio Central 6325......

............. what would NJ Transit say?

Going to second the notion that Rob Davis put forth above. Several years ago, on my first visit to Cass, the railroad was advertising a "Photo Runby on Every Trip". The runby was no John Craft set up (shay engine pushing excursion cars, backlit etc...), that being said, I was impressed with the number of people, families, women children, men in Bermuda Shorts and so on that went trackside to watch or shoot the runby. People broke away from the snack line at Whittaker, some hurried out of the bathroom just to see this bizarre machine spewing soot and steam sounding for all the world like it might self destruct at any moment roll by at the dizzying speed of 8 mph.

I think it added immesurably to the experience of the railroad-oriented visitor and the casual spectator alike.

Granted, this wouldn't work everywhere, but in this case, it did work, as did the Port Jervis runbys.

Dave Crosby

In answer to Mr. Mitchells question, it is important to first say that all the decision makers I dealt with in 1995 when we set-up the 614 program have either retired on gone somewhere else, so I have no idea what the current senior managements attitude would be to that question.
Having said that, it is important to state that NJTransit (like all the Class 1's) has an absolute rule that they will only operate ALL ROLLER BEARING equipment on thier property. Therefore some of the theoretical engines you mentioned (i.e. 6325,2102 ) would be eliminated by this rule.Any other candidate engine would need to be fully equipped with Cab Signals, ATS and Satellite Tracking to qualify to run on NJT, and of course be able to pass a very thorough NJT mechanical inspection.
We were able to get NJT's cooperation as we had a very important (to NJT) NJ politician in our corner and he basically told NJT that they needed to do this program for the good of the State. As he was able to "deliver" many other important things for them his being in our corner made all the difference.
Absent that kind of clout I highly doubt that any other operator would be able to convince NJT to go to the trouble???
Another important aspect is that we proved that the trips were barely able to cover the mandatory expenses (Liability Insurance, track fee,coal, PV rentals, adv.&Mkting,etc.,etc.) with very little left over for a reserve--even with sold out trains carrying 1200 coach and 100 first class pssgrs. Therefore unless there's an angel willing to heavily underwrite the venture, it can't be self-sustaining based on a fare that the marketplace will tolerate ($55-65 adult,$40 child). Also, we found that not being able to assemble a train of roller bearing equipped cars from the steam era was a definite negative.
All in all I think it's highly doubtful that you'll see a repeat of the Pt. Jervis program.
IMHO-Ross Rowland

I didn't say runbys were valueless-they certainly do add something to the experience on rare mileage trips. Who plunks done the bucks for such trips? Its us folks, and a few other kindred spirits. To the riders its a value added service-to the host road, its a risk that they may see as nonessential-or disproportionate. To quote one modern operating manager-"Its all about safety".

To the general public any sight of a running locomotive is a "runby". The question is does the ruby further preservation-testimony that the general public was in any way moved by the sight means nothing unless they are moved to contribute time, talent or treasure-I don't see you making that connection.

No, I wasn't on the PJ trips, but I've seen plenty of runbys in person, including other 4-8-4's , so I'm familiar with the effect on observers of all kinds.

Once again, we are talking about preservation, as Ross explained the PJ trips aren't likely to reoccur. Yes,they were dramatic, but couldn't conquer the economics-if its not economical, its not durable and not preservation.

A great many of very healthy and vibrant operations reserve runbys only for photo freights or some other special event or don't have them at all.

In 1981, I was asked by the late Dick Sanborn to coordinate the operation of Ross's 614 with the Florida Seaboard Safety Express sponsors for a series of 8 trips in four cities. This put me in the position to work closely with Ross and his organization in both planning and operation of the Florida tour of his engine and it's train.

Let me say first off that Ross was a total professional in his dealings with the railroad which put together it's own team of people to manage the excursions. Some of those RR officials were sort of "reluctant" players but they did what the boss told them to do. Others were highly entheusiastic and were a joy to work with. It was Ross's close relationship with Hayes Watkins in running the train on Chessie that brought about the acceptance of the proposed runs by Seaboard System officials. In fact, one SS VP refused to have anything to do with steam of any kind and was effectively over ruled because at that time SS was courting Hayes Watkins in the creation of CSX. At Seaboard, both president Prime Osborn and his assistant Dick Sanborn were pro-steam and the 614 was welcomed.

During the month of March, 1981, 614 made runs out of Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando and Miami, virtually sold out. I had several occasions to work with Ross and in every instance, I was impressed. Yes, he's a salesman and a showman but isn't that what it takes to put on events like these? I've got nothing but praise for Ross because he brought big steam to Florida 25 years or so after main line steam had died, an accomplishment no one else has been able to equal since.

-Jim Herron

My thanks to Jim Herron for his very complimentary testimony! It was a pleasure working with the SS folks and yes the railroad industry is essentially para-military. Once you have the C/O's support everyone else suddenly thinks it's a great idea!! Funny how that works.
I must give superheater credit for being stubborn if nothing else.
Run-bys are an essential ingredient on ANY steam experience, whether rare mileage,long distance excursion or otherwise as they allow the customer who is paying the bills to have a chance to witness the machine he came to admire "do its thing"!!!
You can lead 'em to water.........................................
Ross Rowland

Find myself dismayed about the sense of dishonor attached to the real world virtues of showmanship and salesmanship inherent in this thread. These attributes are what is most necessary to assure we have a future - and we are an industry, a subgroup of the leisure / entertainment industry. Increasing market share in an ever changing demographic requires marketing much more than rivet counting, mechanical prowess, or debating the veracity of the phrase "All Aboard".

While I lean towards wanting to experience a time machine that transports me back to a small part of a vanished era in my real life experience, not everybody cares about history - especially its details - as much as I do. There are many more historical illiterates with much greater disposable income than railway historians. We railway preserevationists are already going to show up - we need to focus on bringing them in to our events, rather than letting them pass us by on their way to other things which attract them more.

Give us showmanship or give us death.

dave

All of Ross's comments above sound perfectly valid and legitimate.

However, my personal-message box on this forum took a big hit from folks telling me--"off the record", of course--a supposed other issue that would no doubt affect another proposed steam operator. It's a rumor I have long been hearing about the Port Jervis trips; I have no way of knowing if it's true, so I won't repeat it here. (It had to do with the logistical operation of the whole season, not, say, an oft-repeated rumor of repeated speed-limit violations.)

But should said rumor be true, it would go a long ways towards explaining the feeling some have that things would become considerably more difficult for any future NJT steam operators as a result of the 614 trips, issues raised by Rowland aside. Not that said hurdle couldn't be overcome, but......

Way to go Al! "I won't mention it here", but you do a really good job of hinting about the rumors.

Didn't your Mom teach you that if you didn't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I have never met Ross Rowland and I was pleasantly surprised when I began visiting this site and found he posted here. My introduction to him was via the Trains and Locomotive show on RFDTV when they aired the tape about the ACE program that Mr. Rowland (my Mom taught me to respect my elders), participated in. I was impressed that there was such a program.

Later!
Mr. Ed

yes yes. NJT would allow no steam after the NRHS in 1988.

Oooops

Wait, NJT would allow no steam after #614.


Oooops

NJT will allow no steam after #142.

Get the point? Can this dead horse of railfan rumor mill rest in peace?

If you have facts, use em. If ya don't...


Rob

I guess if you look at Mr.Rowlands' career from purely a preservation viewpoint you could start with 759, which was made operational in a time when you could still see a steam engine get scrapped. From what I have been told that project was also where Doyle McCormack got started with steam.
Then we have the AFT project that got 2101 pulled from a scrapyard and restored to operation, as well as 4449, & 610 the former of which is still operational and the latter was operational on the Southern for a few years. I also count the SP&S 700 as a direct result of the 4449 group led by Mr.McCormack.
I'm not sure what would have happend to the other two Reading locomotives,2100&2102, both of which have been operational in the not too distant past had it not been for Mr.Rowlands efforts with the 2101.
Then there is of course the 614, which although I had volunteered at a 6mph tourist RR, was the first time I had seen a mainline steam locomotive at speed in a "real" setting on the ACE 3000 test runs in W.Virginia,which in my opinion is very much preserved, albiet not operational at the moment.
Am I biased? Sure, but more than that grateful for the lifelong effort involved in "Walking the Walk".

Thanks Ross,
Dave Thon

And the point is, that demonstration/photo runbys would make some marginal operations better, and some great operations excellent.

Or has the art of entertaining the public with trains been mastered? If so, than I guess the status quo shall not be challenged. I take it then that all seats are filled and innovation is no longer required?

Rob

Mr. Davis and Mr. Ed have done a good job expressing my thoughts regarding wasting our time and ink on rumors and innuendoes. Ronald Reagan expressed it as well as I've ever seen when responding to a reporters question based on the then rumor of the day, he said " I can only say that if one tenth of my rumored affairs were true I'd be in the all time Lovers Hall Of Fame and either far too much in demand to be talking with you or more probably dead from exhaustion"!!
If one tenth of the rumors that have swirled around my "life with steam" were true I guess I'd either be dead or in the Penitentiary and I can happily report that so far neither is the case.
As Mr. Davis said so well....if you've got facts use 'em, if you don't...................... please don't waste this valuable forums time/space on nonsense.
Thank you again to all who have posted such positive comments. They are truly appreciated.
Ross Rowland

All I would like to say is "Thank you" to Ross, Doyle, Steve L, Steve S, Bob, Jerry and all the others who have made my steam railfanning experiences most memorable.