So lets suppose for a second here that some national publications actually pick up this story and run with it. Continuing this extremely slim chance, suppose that this story were to grow wings and begin a national campaign about parks reform and spending reform. At this point with people upset with public spending all across the board, there is a better chance that this would sign the execution order for Steamtown rather than offering it a hope for salvation. I highly doubt that we would see the operation subcontracted to a private firm. Consessions at park food stands are one thing, full on operation is a whole different animal.
Am I to assume that the originator of this article would prefer to see Steamtown shuttered and an auction take place rather than to allow the status quo to continue? That must be one heck of a big bug in their hind end.

Kevin

Tim, I visited Steamtown about three years ago, the first time I had been back to the shop since the 1970s. I was very impressed with the work that has been done, it was quite remarkable when I toured around and a bit disorienting at first. I have dropped by there several times since. There were several things that particularly impressed me. One was the cutaway 0-6-0 which is worth the trip to Scranton all by itself, it is a beautiful job of sectioning a locomotive and you could see the high level of interest it generated among the visitors. I wish we could get a few museums that have covered wagon diesels that will never run again and are rotting in their storage lots to take the side panels off and make similar "visible" locomotives that display the machinery. The second thing I wanted to mention was the 567C engine that was on display, a lot of museums don't have diesel prime movers out where you can get a good look at them, Steamtown does. Another thing that left a lasting impression was the fine job the rangers guiding the tour did of explaining many of the difficulties encountered in operating and restoring steam locomotives, and providing an accurate and informative explanation of the steam-diesel transition period. The lectures were frankly better and more informative than most of the steam related presentations I have seen at conventions in the last four decades.

Since there were requests earlier for the perspective of the people offering comments in this discussion, I will offer that I have no stake at all in Steamtown, I am just a curious observer.

PC

Looking down on the site from satellite photos, I know EXACTLY where to start.

I'm guessing half the equipment is not in carbarns. Deaccession it or cover it. That's the only priority worth discussing until that's done. With $110 million having gone through the place, I boggle that $1M wasn't spent on barns.

I agree with Mr/Ms.?superheater that the procedure needed for someone to "buy" the SNHS property would require the NPS to "deaccession" the place, and that's highly unlikely.

What is within the realm of possibility is IF (big IF) a few senior political leaders (i.e. Sen.'s Specter/Casey) were to become convinced that an accomplished private sector operator could triple/quadruple annual attendance AND maintain the core mission of the place AND save the gummit say half of its current $5 MILLION plus annual cost of operating the place then it might just happen? The Senators are not going to get involved/interested until/unless they percieve that there is REAL support within the greater Scranton community for the change. It would seem to me that if the movers/shakers within the greater Scranton community were to seriously examine this issue that they would, in all probability, give it serious consideration. Perhaps the Tribune article and the national exposure today via AP will prove to be the starting point of such a movement?? Only time will tell.

Perhaps out of this coming years $5 MILLION plus in taxpayer dollars the folks at SNHS can find the relatively few dollars needed to shrink wrap the poor hulks on the dead line to alleviate the impression many visitors get that the place is partly a junk yard, and get some paint on the locomotives in the front yard??? That would certainly help.

IMHO, Ross Rowland

Nobody has yet laid out a convincing and supported business plan, marketing study and economic model to make the case that this is even possible, let alone realistic. Until the time that is accomplished, point is moot. If you can PROVE it rather than propose it, then there will be something worth discussing.

dave

A couple questions from a west-coaster who has never been there.

1.) How is the park managed? Does it have it's own board or advisory commission? Or is it managed only by NPS administrators (e.g. staff)? I'm not talking day-to-day here, I'm talking leadership, budgeting, etc....

2.) Does whoever runs the park have access to any kind of advice from people knowledgeable in preservation? Are there, say, advisors, or consultants, or some other semi-official input from preservationists? (Reading RYPN or getting letters from opinionated individuals in the industry does not count.)

Finally, a completely speculative question no-doubt nobody can actually answer -- has NPS considered just finding some additional land elsewhere -- a warehouse, even just a field -- to use as a rug to sweep its less cared for holdings under? There's no reason that rusty hulks need to be on display, and surely land in the 20 miles surrounding Scranton isn't so expensive that the dogs could be stored elsewhere pending further investment and protection...?

What Mr. Rowland is talking about is what we call in the military Competitive Sourcing. I have seen the Good, The Bad, and The Ugly of this. We have been doing this for about 10 years now and IMO has cost more to do than if we just kept it in house. We have many contractors on our base that serve the food, cut the grass, clean the buildings, etc. Now we do use different criteria’s to establish if we are going to source a service with a commercial contract but the I’m sure that the NPS has similar criteria’s that must be looked at. One thing to remember with this is that if you do competitive sourcing, the money has to come from somewhere else. Most of the time that money comes from the budget cuts of that organization and that comes from cutting jobs. You folks wonder why the Iraq war is costing so much. We have contractors, not GIs, cooking, cleaning, and maintaining the bases we are at. Big fat contracts!!! So yes sometimes a contractor coming in is good but someone has to do those cost studies to determine if will benefit the park. Now one more thing, someone should ask the question can the park rent out space to allow other steam locomotives to operate there and add to the NPS. Mr. Rowland could in theory bring his 614 up and operate it and may be pay for space or even CNJ 113 is looking for a home to have some fun. That would be nice to see two 0-6-0s out in the yard moving cars around. Again, sorry for using the Air Force as examples it’s all I know, but we do have contractors operating from on CONUS bases delivering stuff for us but they do pay for specific items. Food for thought……………..

They have been storing excess hulks at a federal property in Tobyhanna, Pa., on the excursion route to the Delaware Water Gap, and some of the stuff that had been there has been scrapped or sold.

Hi,

Here are some thoughts on my lunch hour from someone who cares about the park, used to be involved and is now a frequent - happy - visitor (who of course, wants more).

Small Government & Pork
Some of the initial critics of Steamtown’s inclusion in the NPS called it “pork” then and still think of it that way. If you are a small-government/free-market believer, Steamtown as an NPS property is probably always going to be a thorn in your paw. If it gets more federal money, it will probably be a bigger thorn. The volume of this argument rises and fades over time, but it is always there and usually touted by the same folks. I don’t agree with this POV, but it is out there and needs to be respected/addressed/considered.

The Never Happy Railfan
Some history buffs, myself included, took exception to Steamtown during the early 1990’s. My issues were around the demolition of the Dickson buildings and the city’s wholesale demolition of downtown. The battle was meek. The bricks fell, we lost.

At the same time, the rail buff community was ticked because their favorite engine was not running to their favorite town on a day that they could ride it.

Some of us got past this stuff, others did not. Just like the Small Gov’t & Pork crowd, the Never Happy Railfan drum still beats -- and usually its the same suspects year after year.

The Happy Railfan
I personally transitioned from supporter to critic to supporter and remain a frequent happy visitor. I have not had a bad experience at the park in over 15 years. The trips I have ridden were great, my kid loves it, and when you toss in the trolley museum next door (with the best electric ride in the US), it is a lot of fun. I know many other folks in this category.

The really happy railfan also knows they can buy cab rides and get mainline miles on the smoky end of big steam. Can’t do that everywhere!

The Happy History Buff
Have you seen the Mattes Street tower? Have you seen it? The Happy History Buff will be quite happy to see the attention paid to it. Yes, I wish there were more examples, but if you need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, ask him to show you the tower.

What Would I Do?
Since everyone feels free to tell Steamtown what they would do, here is what I would do with somewhat realistic goals.

Give/sell/trade off about 25% of the collection. Decide based upon interpretive value, not condition. For instance, some of the splinter fleet deserves to stay while some better-kept pieces deserve to go.

Restore one of the two little Vulcans. Have an area-built lokie running kid-sized caboose hops 364 days a year.

Prioritize having 3 large engines and one Vulcan steam-able at all times. Use the rest of the funds to proceed with asbestos abatement and repainting on the fleet.

Build a steel “museum warehouse” in the back of the yard property and put everything being kept inside it. Rotate outside exhibits. Let folks inside, but keep it basic like IRM or the Delson, QC museum. I know the “yard scene” purists will hate it, but it needs to be done.

Collect freight cars. Now. Steam-era cars are dissappearing rapidly. Steamtown should have no less than 20-25 restored freight cars available for the “yard scene” and photo freights. You cannot tell the story of steam without train cars.

Put the Big Boy in a “Sacremento-like” setting. Use interactive media to bring it to life.

Properly mothball or re-mothball 4-5 potential operable steamers and get them inside. Plan for rotation of excursion duty over a 25 year period.

Acquire a Dickson, they were made in town. Maybe in relation to an exhibit on small steam and the anthracite industry? In all seriousness, a narrow-gauge mine lokie ride would be cool and "almost" site-appropriate. Hey, there is that DL&W Coal Vulcan out in Oregon! Hmmm...

That’s all I have time for now...

Rob

PS: and the now the DREAM suggestion. Run regular ops to the Huber Breaker in Ashley. This is a BIG DREAM to fund the Huber restoration, rehab the county owned tracks and pull Wilkes-Barre into the picture.

Interesting development...................
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/0 ... r_rai.html
If this does finally make it to Scranton could that help or hurt Steamtown? Think about an excursion on the weekends covering that distance! I think I read a rumor on another forum that they want to put a car repair building on or near Steamtown.

Let me guess, your #1 constructive change would be for Steamtown to finance the restoration of 614?

I just don't understan how come Mr. Rowland don't just run 614 on R&N's Lehigh Line, it class one railroad.

Len.

Hi Ross,

Three questions for you from someone a little younger and a whole lot dumber than you:

(1) Can you provide *any* examples of where the privatized operations model you are calling for has actually worked? You are calling for public agencies to continue to own the track, equipment and other facilities, while private contractors would bid to operate it. The only arrangement like that that I'm aware of it is the current Colorado Historical Society/Railstar contract to operate the Georgetown Loop. That example has *hemorrhaged* public funds and no longer is running steam.

(2) Can you list any qualified firms that would be willing to bid on the operating contracts? I'm not aware of any -- only a single firm bid on the Georgetown Loop contract while, IIRC, no firms were interested in bidding on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic contract. In short, I don't understand why qualified firms would aspire to be the railroading equivalent of sharecroppers.

(3) Can you explain how your experience running seasonal mainline excursions for a few years in the 1970s and 1980s is relevant to contemporary railroading and/or how is it relevant to running a national historical site open 52 weeks a year? Back in the 70s and 80s, the railroads were downsizing and there was lots of excess capacity so fitting in an occasional steam excursion was no big deal. In 2008, the railroads are at capacity -- heck, whenever I railfan in Scranton, I'm amazed at how much freight the Delaware-Lackawanna moves.

Any explanations you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!

--
Chris Webster
http://www.speakeasy.org/~cwebster

I agree with Mr/Ms.?superheater that the procedure needed for someone to "buy" the SNHS property would require the NPS to "deaccession" the place, and that's highly unlikely.

Ross, Ross are you telling us your keen sense of discernment can't tell the difference? You could hide under the cloak of my anonymity, except you've met me and man, I gotta tell you I'd make one hideously ugly woman, and anybody who knows me can attest to that fact, unless your taste is more simian than human. Nope, there just isn't enough beer in Milwaukee to make me easy on the eye.

Now on to substance. Items in collections are deaccessioned, parks are decommissioned. I'm sure a civic-minded fellow like yourself wouldn't want to mislead anyone.