Does anyone have a roster of equipment under the care of the ARRM? The GG1, K4s and Queen Mary flatcar stand out in my memory from previous visits years ago, but not much else does.

I'm going to go off of memory, online rosters, and useful links here; info seems to be current as of mid-2008, at least:

PRR obs 8419 Mountain View, in operable/displayable condition: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve- ... View_1.htm
PRR K4s 1361: no intro needed.............
PRR GG1 4913: ditto.
PRR 8113 obs Jacks Narrows
PRR 8119 Harbor Springs bar/lounge: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve- ... prings.htm
PRR 5239 Bm70n RPO Robert E. Hannegan: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve- ... nnegan.htm

Berwind-White Coal Co. 0-4-0T "Nancy": http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Nancy.htm
PV Loretto II: this page shows extensive interior restoration post-arson: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve- ... tion_3.htm

Herman Haupt truss bridge, reportedly off-site for restoration: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Haupt.htm

CR 24026 Caboose class N-10
CR 45215 Wreck derrick ex-Elkhart, Ind.
CR Idler car, Mated with wreck derrick
CR 80002 Scale test car, 2-axle
CR 80083 Scale monitor car
NS 658265 Boxcar, Horseshoe Curve 150th anniversary
PC 501273 Ore "jenny" car, Stored outside museum
PRR 2136 X29 boxcar
PRR 2561 R50b Express Refrigerator car
PRR 4468 Diner D-70fR
PRR 6509 RPO Bm-70nb
PRR 6571 RPO Bm-70m
PRR 7048 EMD GP9 On display at Horseshoe Curve
PRR 7511 Duquesne Office/business class Z-74e*
PRR 8351 Birch River P-S Sleeper 10-6 Stainless
PRR 8628 Union League Club Club car 8-Bf* (NRHX 107)
PRR 9055 Baggage B-60b * (NRHX 102)
PRR 473908 Flatcar F30a (might be off site)
PRR 477577 Caboose N-5
REX 7375 Refrigerator *
UTLX 28212 Tank car Training tankcar
n/a Boxcar Air conditioner for Museum
n/a Locomotive BFA (4-ton) Brookville
n/a PRR Tender

*reported as owned by Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS

Not on this roster: a couple ex-DL&W MU cars that were owned/lettered for Horseshoe Curve NRHS, which I am not sure if they are still owned by the Chapter and/or in town. I expect Brother Maples to update us on that shortly.......

Another source with close connections to the Railroaders Memorial Museum has contacted me via personal e-mail with what really sounds like a pointed response to the entire thread above. I'm going to paraphrase/edit it, because the gentleman in question doesn't want his name and/or direct words associated with what he feels is a rhymes-with-missing match with nothing productive going on:


Further, said party says that Neil Myers, the director of operations of the RMM, is always open for questions, even on the dreaded 1361. You can call the Museum at 814-946-0834, extension 204--and I just confirmed this myself with a phone call to same.

And I was hoping not to get dragged into this thread . . .

Yes, the Horseshoe Curve Chapter owns three MU cars stored on the Everett Railroad and employed for the Chapter's annual Santa Trains in November, as well as other special events as may be scheduled.

Alan Maples
Everett Railroad

Mr. Mitchell..

In the spirit of friendly discussion, I take exception to your statement regard my personal desire to throw stones at the ARRM... as that certainly was not the case... In response to your email, I did specifically mention that some pieces of equipment such as the R50b, REA car, Duquense and I might have mentioned the diner, recently saw some paint... ( certainly no rock thrown there ) ... and secondly... I also made mention of the positive steps to part with some equipment ( such as the Nicholas Firestone, FGE car etc etc ) .. certainly no stone in hand there either.. ?.... I questioned the lack of what would appear a preservation policy.. given how much money they have burned through in the last ten years... its that simple... give the B&O Railroad Museum or any other group that much money, and I suspect the engines and cars in the railroad garden ( parking lot ) would likely still not look as they do... ( which for the most part is not too bad )...

And although I am just an individual, as I mentioned before... even ARM ( association of Railway Museums ) in an issue of the "quarterly" described ./ mentioned the terrible neglect of the equipment.... however I guess we dare not attack them for publishing the truth... should we light the torches and run them out of town... I suspect no..

I can see a very common theme here.... which is unless its "positive or heart warming"... there is no room for discussion here... no matter if its steamtown, the United Railway Group of New Jersey, the NRHS or anything or anyone else.... the moment you question something or offer a not very popular opinion ( which is why people have discussions and forums exist ) , things start to breakdown here... That is indeed unfortunate, as I suspect the common good of a forum loaded with knowledgeable educated people here really could do great things...

Randy and the moderators.... I appreciate your efforts to manage this forum, ( and missed it when it briefly disappeared ) and I specifically appreciate that you allowed this specific topic to move along its path... If I learned anything from it... I realize that this is the place to post details of restoration success stories... goals that have been met... and photographs of freshly painted engines, cars and stations... ( I do truly appreciate your efforts )

I am sure we will all feel great knowing that subjects that people often want to know, but are skeptical to ask about ... should perhaps be gagged. as to not dare question or possibly learn from things that did not go right...

I am sure the founders of this great forum did not think that is how it would be...

John, Kevin and Randy ( and all who enjoy free speech ) ... that is Indeed unfortunate

D.A. Levin

I don’t see anything hampering free speech here so far.

This thread contains record of only one person threatening freedom of discussion. By breaking forum rules and thus forcing the moderator into a quandary.

I won't name the person, except to say he gives only initials and last name, and faulted another for doing the same.

This is a fairly common pattern in Internet discussion.

The forum DOES permit these discussions.

The forum has rules which guide these discussions.

The problem is that a significant minority of participants in this forum do not obey the rules. Either they have not ever read those rules, and/or has a personality incompatible with following those rules.

The practice of the moderators here is to lock threads rather than block participants. Which punishes the discussion rather than the rabblerouser.

Mr. Levin wrote:




I really don't know why I'm wading back into this topic. It's Friday, I'm in a relatively good mood....

Anyway, I'd like to remind forum participants that your First Amendment Rights do not apply to RYPN, or any other private forum. I do this only due to the horrible level of civics education in this country, and that a while back when another poster threatened legal action, he also cited the First Amendment. Simply, the First Amendment begins "Congress shall make no laws..." "Congress" means Congress (and state and local governments as incorporated by the 14th Amendment). As such, the moderators can enforce our lack of free speech in any way they want to, with or without reason. Unfair? Yes, but it is also fair. Thinking that those who use this forum enjoy 1st Amendment rights on the forum would be the same as me being able to come into Mr. Levin's own private home and yell my disagreements with him.

Ok, now that we are on the same page, have a good weekend!

Mr. Levin, for better or worse, has pointed out the declining condition of several pieces of equipment at ARRM. More people have responded with various reasons why ARRM is in this situation or to suggest that Mr. Levin is merely looking to stir up controversy.

Well take a look at today's "Flimsies" and specifically this link:
http://www.mpnnow.com/monroe_county_west/x998773576/VIDEO-Wheels-on-Rush-museum-keep-on-rolling

As some of you know the trollet museum and the R&GV Museum share a common site. This article is about the trolley museum, but look at this coment the reporter makes about R&GVRM:



I have never been to the R&GVRM. With this one sentence how many casual readers are going to seek them out? We can all explain why our equipment looks the way it does or that "saving" it means it will continue to decay until we get around to restoring it, but what the public sees means you will never get a chance to give the explanation.

SO,

I am from the R&GVRRM, and I can say we are very disappointed in the article that was written about our museums and specifically, the R&GVRRM. First it is wrought with errors including the fact that the R&GVRRM does not even own a bus, and second, we are in the midst of some very large scale property improvement projects which have our property in slightly less than optimal condition right now. Alas, it appears we did fail at communicating those facts to the visiting reporter, and we are already actively working to make improvements to insure that message is more effectively communicated.

We are not blind to outward appearance, and we are also not blind to proper collection management having recently de-accessioned one car to another museum while scrapping another car body so its parts could serve a nearly fully restored sister car at our partner museum, the NYMT. We are also not quite as shiny as we would like to be, and we are working hard to remedy that as well. Yet we are in the midst of some very large property improvement projects; some of which are by the nature of our property in public site. It is one of those times where we are forced to do the work "on stage" vs. "off stage" to use the Disney thinking. Yet, we need to improve how we communicate our efforts to the public since they only see our museum as a snapshot in time and do not see the progression of work over time or know what the end result will be.

We are a very dynamic museum where several members of our Board are under the age of 30, our volunteer corps has a great distribution in ages, and we continue to bring in new volunteers having just voted in four last night at our meeting. On the flip side, we are not unaffected by the economic times and are forced to work slower and more methodically to stretch every dollar we have. Yet, we are trying to do things right and can only use this article as a learning experience.

For those including yourself who have not visited our museum, I welcome you to:

1) Wander through our website: www.rgvrrm.org
2) Check out our blog which contains several years of updates on progress around our museum: R&GVRRM Blog
3) Check out our YouTube site to see that in fact we are an operating museum: R&GVRRM & NYMT on YouTube
4) Read through our newsletter archive which also shows all we have done: The Semaphore

I welcome further discussion and questions. Perfect we are not, but we are trying. We are also always learning, have already learned from this article, and thank the RYPN community for their many positive contributions to our knowledge over the years.

Regards,
Chris Hauf
Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum

Well, the facts are not subject to majority opinion :) However, there's "dilapidated" and then there's "declining". I have yet to encounter a museum where all the pieces are bright and shiny. "dilapidated" is simply a reality of the trade. The question is whether things are improving or going to hell. I am yet unconvinced of the latter.

As mostly volunteer based organizations we are all aware of the problems and lack of resources.

That knowledge, understanding, and even frustration means that we may chose to ignore some of the obvious signs... which are sitting out front where the visitors see them. We may be the least qualified to see our sites. We know they are out front but also know the effort needed to address them...

Park engines at Altoona, The parking lot engines at Steamtown and Baltimore, Lines of cars along the excursion line at most of the rest of our sites...

Disney would not allow this to happen, we do, we get criticized, we scream in protest...

Add to the mix the reality of history not always being pretty. The patina and damage and wear could well be worthy of preservation itself - if it was an organic part of the artifact resulting from its in-service use. Covering it over with a lot of bondo and a coat of shiny modern epoxy enamel then irreversably destroys historic fabric - would you want to put a cover coat over the Mona Lisa? Nice coat of beige interior satin gloss acrylic over all those old faded murals in the Cistine Chapel?

Sometimes we need to educate about the difference between our irresponsible neglect and preserved historic neglect.

dave

Anyone else notice a touch of irony in Randy's post? He starts by pointing out that railroad museums are mostly volunteer based organizations, but then gives examples of dilapidated equipment at three museums -- none of which are volunteer based organizations.

Let me be an iconoclast for a minute and point out that all railroad museums, particularly those with non-railfan governing boards and senior management, have other, higher, priorities than keeping all the rolling stock looking brand new or even higher priorities than preservation of every engine and car. I suspect they see their first priority as enhancing as much as possible the visitor experience. And they put their limited resources where they believe it will make the greatest impact on the visitor experience. Since they are not lovers of railroad cars and locomotives, they are probably much better judges of the impact, or lack of impact, of shoddy looking equipment in public view than we are. And they seem to consistently put their limited resources elsewhere. Maybe they are right!

Note also that in all three instances quoted by Randy, the locations
are outside the fence, viewable for free. I think the professional managers have figured out that their visitors are much more critical of "stuff" inside the gate, "stuff "they paid to see, not the stuff outside they can see for free.

Would Disney allow this? Certainly not. Nothing of interest would be on view for free. The whole idea is to get people to pay for an enjoyable eperience. And every object would need to have a business reason to receive the first penny of resoration expense. I suspect Disney would scrap all but a small fraction of the equipment at most railroad museums.

The issue is that most of us on this forum have a great personnal interest in, and affection for, historic railroad equipment. The vast majority of our visitors do not. Good managers and governance boards respond primarily to their primary customers, not us on the rail enthusiast fringe.