It just seems that no one is willing to negotiate to allow equipment they don't own to run on their lines

Virtually every freight run on our national system is made up of cars from many lines or unit trains from one private company. Interchange of equipment is alive, well, and necessary.

dave

Yes, major railroads are very hesitant to give permission for tourist/steam/unusual movements on their lines. Shortlines, smaller regionals, and lines under public ownership are more willing.

So many railroad projects, both museums and tourist railroads have been enthusiast based, underfunded, without business plans (beyond "that's the last (insert your favorite steam or diesel here, with or without the name of a railroad) and it needs to be saved", or "I love steam and need a place to see it run")

Modern railroads businesses that exist to move things in exchange for money. They are best suited to move large quantities of freight on regular routes. Historically, passengers, whether Amtrak, or tourist generally do not generate sufficient revenue to make it worth the bother. Small underfunded tourist operations particularly don't. If you add issues of mechanical weirdness and reliability and liability, any railroader who allows museums/preservation/tourist use is asking for trouble...

That being said, the solution is acting in a way a railroad, through its business model would recognize. This means business plans, contracts, and sufficient funding and insurance to assure the railroad (or other entity) that they will not suffer a loss, and that you are a reliable partner.

It can be done... but it needs vision, from vision comes money, public support, and an organization. The steam groups associated with Milwaukee 261, Dale and 4449, and Ross have all done it... but all are business like, and have resources. Ross has had trouble pulling it off recently, but is still trying and I wouldn't bet against him pulling it off again. Bernie Levin has done it with Diesels for his train to the Army Navy game. Golden Gate RR Museum does a Santa train on Caltrain... in the past with steam.

For excursion trains, get in the coach business. Steam engines may be sexy, but the precious commodity in the excursion business is a viable fleet of mainline coaches. Preferably, that match.

For railroad museums, there are plenty of opportunities. They emerge PRECISELY when suitable railroad lines come available.

If you are going to be an operating railroad museum, you need a railroad line.

In this market, with rail in resurgence, suitable railroad lines in practicable locations are few and far between, so you must move fast. "Suitable locations" means
* Rural enough to not be encroached by suburbia.
* Scenic enough to be worth bothering with.
* Far from vandals
* A place where the neighbors can be placated (not Creede).
* Roughly an hour's drive from a major city (not East Ely).
* Far enough out that land is cheap.
* You can actually own the line without someone snatching it back from you to run coal trains, LRVs or TGVs.

I think each of us can list off several museums which break the above rules at their dire peril. Only a few can succeed due to some stable fluke, like Nevada Northern's unique status.

And I think what happens generally, is that railway museums are so wrapped up in getting started that they give little consideration to these issues, and as so, they fail to plan for success.

That's a tall order to fill. It's definitely possible, but not just anywhere. Strasburg seems like a good example.

So far I got......

1 Business plan that makes money
2 Sell plan to investors to get capital
3 Buy your own railroad OR get the state to buy it for you OR reach operating agreement with local shortline
4 Buy/lease land and build yard/shop/depot etc
? Buy equipment ?
? Lease equipment?
? Insurance?
? Red tape?
? Promote?
? Run Railroad?

No, no, no.

Go back to the mission: why?

Are you trying to make money, or preserve history (and, if the latter, what history, specifically)?

Are you trying to save a locomotive (which, and why?), or a rail line (which, and why?), or a specific train (w/w?), or a specific experience/environment?

Or are you just trying to make money? Or make money doing what you love?

You will not be able to attract investors, donors, local political support, or local volunteerism unless you have a cause or mission that others can support with their money, time, donations, appropriations, and/or sweat. You are competing for those resources. You will need to do a sales job. You need a product or mission you can sell to others, whether it be "make money operating a dinner train with a locomotive that sits there anyway between freight runs" or "save the historic first mile of railroad in our state" or sell the public a Hogwarts Express experience".

I'm getting the impression the goal here isn't building a museum for the purpose of preserving or interpreting any specific historic concept, but as the means to another goal, which is to run trains.

Nothing wrong with wanting to run trains - but building a new museum is the hard way to do it. Far cheaper and easier to join an existing operation and work your way up through its ranks, or, faster, buy time in the rent-a-throttlle programs offered by many. If you want to know what time it is you can build a watch or just ask somebody who is already wearing one..........when you are surrounded by watch wearers already.

Ross posted employment application information in another thread for his proposed mainline steam operation - why not start by sending a resume' there?

dave

I think the biggest question you need to ask yourself is why do you need to start another group. Please don't take this question the wrong way, I don't know you, or anything about the area where you are, I've just seen too many efforts start only to fail.

Are you in an area many miles from the nearest preservation effort? Are there groups, either of limited scope or totally wedged in with no room to expand? Are there personality issues preventing working with existing groups? (I don't want to hear details if it's the latter!) Is there a particular branchline you are watching, knowing it is soon to become history, and hoping a museum might save it? Are there sufficient volunteers (from all age groups) available to make the effort fly?

As others have stated, it's best to start with existing groups, and if there's something you would like them to expand into, use the powers of persuasion and hard work. So much of the work of starting a new museum is time consuming, difficult work... developing a mission/ vision, incorporating either as non- profit, charity, or for- profit, recruiting board members and building up a pool of members- who are happy to get their hands dirty, building up a relationship with local governments, funders, the press, and so on.

Are the other local railways willing to work with you when necessary? This point is of huge importance, and the better your personal track record the better your chances they will listen to you.

You'll need to decide if your vision is significantly different from other area groups. You really need to do your homework and ensure the venture will be financially viable- as gorgeous as that branchline is, it may be impossible to attract enough visitors and/ or freight customers to pay the bills.

Grants, corporate, foundation, and private donations are very difficult to attract. It's much worse in some locations, so you need to know the financial challenges you'll face.

Having said all this, if you have determined that the proposed operation can be financially viable, have a distinct, attractive vision, have the intestinal fortitude to slog through the challenges, it is indeed possible to start a new museum, historical group, tour train, tourist railway, or shortline. Dumb luck plays a role here for all of us- even those who have become preservation legends- and a number of those folks are right here on this forum, helping.

Others are starting groups. Some will thrive, many will struggle, some will fail. Those who did the best homework are most likely to be among the successful ones.

Whatever you end up doing, I wish you the best of success. This forum is one of the best places to seek advice from folks who have been in the game for a long time.

Steve Hunter

http://www.sfrmeo.ca/
http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo/

I totally agree that there has to be a reason.
Lets say for example that ACME railroad is abadoning a old historic branchline.
The mission would be to preserve ACME's old branchline, to run a restored ACME Steam and or diesel loco. We want to provide an education experience during the day, and run a authenic 1920's dinner train in the evening. We have to a show how that is goign to be feasible in town anywhere usa, and genreate enough income to not fail, otherwise you aren't going to get grants, investors or donators.
That is what I mean when I say first is to have a bussiness plan that generates money.

I had never heard of Monticello until this thread, so I agree that there isn't a need in the Peoria area after all, and I will be happy to go help out there.
However, as I stated earlier, I do plan on moving some place that isn't reasonably served, and I am gathering idea's now. I will be doing homework for years to come, because I want this to be a sucess, not a failure.

I don't want to see mainline steam die. That is my ultimate goal over all.

I have had the pleasure of being marginally involved in the inception of a railroad museum. Some investors thought a museum would be good. They acquired an abandoned branch line. Built a building and went shopping for significant pieces for the collection. They assumed that everyone would gladly give them whatever they requested. Needless to say no one did. They were astounded.
So, I agree that a mission statement is the first priority. If not a mission statement then a statement declaring the purpose and goal of the museum, something to fall back on when focus is lost. Then start raising money quietly. If you make a big deal about the whole thing anticipation will build then dwindle. Raising money takes time and the public lose interest quickly. Raise about 80% of what you need then throw a party.

Well, if someone can move fast and has the big bucks, the old ET&WNC line from Johnson City to Elizabethton, TN is about to be turned into a hiking trail (gag!) by Johnson City (they put up the highest bid). I don't think final papers have been signed, but the writing is on the wall, and the large singing female is warming up! The ET&WNC historical society and members is not pleased, nor are other railfans, but no one has the $$$ to do anything else. I think it meets several of the above criteria, and it is still intact at this time.

I think a BIG thing a new & many older tourist roads need is to have a destination with something for people to do or see like the Grand Canyon has. Just giving a out & back train ride is ok for a non for profit but if you want to make money running to a hotel or casino or big antique mall. I think people want to be able to shop, eat & see a movie. I guess you could call it an "all around destination" a family could spend a good part of the day at.
Just my thoughts. Something to think about anyway.

Dave Huffman