Well, gosh darn it, in the grand scheme of things I can't really demonstrate a NEED for any of all of this. Even the St. Louis Parks employees and Strasburg and Xanterra employees could find other jobs, couldn't they?

Some thing we do because we want to, and we can. And/or we enlist the aid of others, and the goodwill of patrons and customers.

But, true, there's probably not a good economic argument for restoring another MOT steamer to operation, for now.....

There is probably not good economic reason to restore the majority of the historic rail equipment out there. It's done out of passion and with many visions of running or displaying said historic equipment. It's been said by many that there is nothing like a real living breathing steam engine to fire the passion in our younger generations. There are a few business models of a small steam locomotive being restored and trucked from one location to another to spread the gospel of Baldwin.

OK, simply not true. many operators have made steam operation a priority because they have a good business reason to make it an integral part of their brand or product. And NEED is not part of the business plan in any business driven by creating a market share in the entertainment industry, which includes tourist and historic businesses.

"It would be so cool" isn't a good reason. "It would incrase our market share by XX% and differentiate us from our competition in a way that gives us an edge" is a good reason. "It's an integral part of our mission" is an enough for nonprofits in some cases.

A hobby is sustainable because you are willing to pay to pursue it. This isn't a good basis for making decisions about keeping your nonprofit museum alive.

dave

In keeping with Dave's assertions, you have to ask yourself "Will this bring more volunteers in, or will it be a drain on our resources?"

My problem with the idea of constructing a live steamer at MOT is why duplicate what the WF&P does? They do their job well, we do ours, why complicate things? I notice, becuase I volunteer and on occasion operate the street car and interact with the public, that a lot of youngsters drag their parents to MOT. I don't know if an operating steam locomotive, small or large, would attract more of them, or make them repeat visitors. The museum does a good business, based on my informal observations, of selling memberships to families so they can come again and again, ride the streetcar, ride the miniture train, and look at the exhibits.

I like the idea of the 0-4-0T operating, or even the MKT 4-4-0, but I also feel that such an operation would entail a lot of work, for little or no return. It would be hard for me to justify the expenditure in time and effort when there is so much other work to be done.

David Wilkins
Shattered Dreams, Missouri

The steam society in Owosso MI has some model railroad exhibits. Hesston is Dual-Narrow Gauge with a 7 1/2 inch operating line, a 15 inch line operating, they used to have a small loop of 3 inch gauge live steam. If your going to have a big mainline engine running you may as well try to find it some mainline trips if at all possible, if you want to make that your goal. All depends on "your" direction on what "you" want to do and the economicals behind it. IRM is "alive" with its operating trolleys and more and advertise on local radio stations "Come ride!"

Make ya choice


cheers.

Yes, the WF&P is close to the MOT and does a fine job for what they do. They are probably the closest thing this country has to an American version of the Romney, in that they try and operate for the public with some of the infrastructure and procedures of a full-size railroad (signals, rules, schedule). I really like that they actively recruit and involve youth in the operation of the railroad. I loved the time I was able to spend there.

That said, they only operate on Sundays May to October, and let me tell you from experience that you have to make an effort to find out how to get there if you're not from the area. They can't post any signs before the last turn onto the road they are on. While 1/5th scale does make it possible to come closer to a full-size operating environment than 1.5 in. scale does, you still don't get the same feel that you would around a larger size, and it's still hard to do things like have traditional air brake systems with locomotive mounted air pumps that look and sound like the full-sized ones, or structures that have to be cartoon-ishly out of scale in size, or whistles that either don't look totally out of scale or sound like a tea kettle. I also thought we were talking about something that would increase the appeal and visibility of the MOT.

I don't know how possible this would be, given the set-up of the track at the MOT, but how about trying something to test the appeal of having an operating steam locomotive at MOT full-time? You've got at least two roaming tank engines available for hire, Flagg Coal #75 and Viscose #6. Why not arrange for one of them to come and demonstrate at the museum for a couple of weekends next year and see what that does for attendance? Maybe they could offer caboose rides as part of it; maybe sell some throttle time as has been done elsewhere. Cheaper than a trip to Poland. Publicize the event heavily, and have lots of membership literature available, along with a group of designated volunteers at a special table assigned to recruiting duty, eager and willing to talk to anyone who expresses interest in joining the museum. If they are not recruiting as actively as the armed forces, then you're wasting the opportunity.

Until several years ago, the St. Louis Live Steamers had a layout on the lower level of the MOT.
I don't know what led up to their dismantlement and move to Eureka,MO and won't speculate as this is just information only.
There were several fine engines which ran there including a great looking Missouri Pacific 5335 class 4-8-2.
But, to put to rest the discussion of live steam at the MOT, here it is.

Why are you trying to stop this thread? Discussions like this are the brain-storming sessions of the internet age, and can lead to positive things happening. The idea for the interchange section of this site is exactly for discussions like this. I think we're getting somewhere with this one. Granted, it started out as a question about a specific locomotive, but the discussion hasn't been totally hijacked off-topic, and it hasn't disintegrated into shrill name-calling. Let it run it's course.

At least part of why the St. Louis Live Steamers were made to leave MOT was that there was a plan for the development of the lower level area near their tracks. It might also be worth mentioning that while it was popular with visitors they only ran trains a few days every summer, not on a regular basis. So they moved and the area was redone with the two foot gauge miniature train that wound up not going through where they were, although the parking and new roadways did. The new building is still not under construction several years later now, although some preparatons and earthworks have been done. I always thought it was unfortunate that they had to leave. And any discussion of running steam at MOT has to take into account the successful electric streetcar operation that would have to be suspended if a steamer was using the same tracks. If anyone wants to see how restrictive the track layout is just use Google maps or something similar to take a look. If only it had anything like the IRM's several miles of right of way to use, but it is just a yard layout crammed full of stuff.

Ron -

You bring up a good point about the restrictive track space available at MOT. Makes me wonder about other museums with restrictive space for operation. But rather than "hijack" this thread, I'll start a new one.

Les

If you look at a Google map of the Museum of Transportation St. Louis and zoom in to the area near the UP main line you can see two sheds. The one to the left is near the mouth of the tunnel. The streetcar operation goes from the left corner of this building on the track coming out of the tunnel to the loop visible at the right end of the other, larger shed, about 1000 feet in all. On the opposite side of the left shed and outside the gate to the UP is a lead track that can be used, and was used when #1522 was operational, so a locomotive could also get about 1000 feet of track to use and run up to the center of the right side shed, near the start of the loop. Needless to say you wouldn't want both a steamer and electric car trying to share this track. An 0-4-0T with a caboose or two would work but a Shay would make a lot more attractive noise while going even slower in such an opearion.

Could you run a caboose hop into the tunnel and back out again for special events?

dave

Not really. The tunnel is unlined, and has collapsed on one occasion. It flattened a St. Louis streetcar in the process. Most people feel that the tunnel would have to be lined to prevent further problems. I also don't think the track goes all the way through the tunnel. Right now a couple of flat cars are shoved in, just to keep them out of the way.

If it were to happen, just letting a 0-4-0T move about the place, with nobody riding, would probably be the best solution. Of course, that means not running the streetcar.

(Why are you trying to stop this thread? Discussions like this are the brain-storming sessions of the internet age, and can lead to positive things happening. The idea for the interchange section of this site is exactly for discussions like this. I think we're getting somewhere with this one. Granted, it started out as a question about a specific locomotive, but the discussion hasn't been totally hijacked off-topic, and it hasn't disintegrated into shrill name-calling. Let it run it's course.)


Whoa!!! I'm not trying to stop the thread, just stating that until a few years ago there was live steam operating at the MOT on the lower level. No one had pointed this out so I stuck my neck out.
Continue at will. Jeez!

To begin with, let me state my usual disclaimer. The opinions below are mine and mine alone. I do not, nor do I purport to, speak for MOT, St. Louis County, the Transportation Museum Association, or any other group affiliated with MOT or railway preservation in general. My opinions are formed from years of hard experience, and my general pessimistic view on life in general. You've been warned, act accordingly.

Paul, I'm not trying to call anyone names, or say anything else negative, but someone I know calls the people that front ideas, but do noting to put them into action "internet volunteers." It's easy for one to sit behind a computer and tell other museums 1) how to manage their collections, and 2) what the best use of their equipment and facilities are, without having to put the work in to fund raise or get one's hands dirty.

Maybe I'm just a tad sensitive because the museum I volunteer frequently at, MOT, is often the target of the "that locomotive should really be at another museum...." or "MOT should...." threads, when these people don't do any of the work or don’t donate a dime.

For all of the "brain storming" I've seen on this forum, I can count on one hand the projects that could even be remotely credited to such sessions occurring ob RYPN or other forums. I’m not trying to stifle discussion, just stating what I view the facts to be.

By the way, the St. Louis Chapter of the NRHS (of which I am not a member, and do not speak for in any official or unofficial capacity) is moving beyond armchair museum management, and is raising funds to cosmetically restore Wabash 573. I'm sending them a check this week. Paul and others, will you join me? They estimate it will take about $11,000 to do a cosmetic restoration of the locomotive. More threads on RYPN don't pay for paint or other materials. Checks in the mail do.

Information can be found here: http://www.stlouisnrhs.org/wabash_573.htm

I’m not certain this thread, or any others can really effectuate positive change. It takes dollars and boots on the ground. However, donate to the 573 fund, and I can almost certainly assure you real results will occur.

David Wilkins
Dirty boots and greasy gloves, Missouri