I am 23 and I am in graduate school to be a museum professional and I will be interning at Steamtown this year. I've volunteered a lot of hours at a railway historical society and I have been a repsonsible railfan all my life.

JoshuaKBlay@hotmail.com

> I just had to cancel 2 days of work on a
> nice light pacific after having been T-Boned
> by an 82 year old driver running through a
> red light on medication. I would love to
> have 2 or 3 healthy young apprentices help
> with the heavier work under my supervision
> and instruction so the job can proceed while
> I am half gone. Any volunteers?

Dave, I'm sorry to here of your accident. It shows that old walruses like us need to pass the knowledge on to the next generation. Too much has been lost by the loss of the one expert in a given field to accident.


ironbartom@aol.com

I too am not real fond of these type of threads. And, although I do think some generalizations and stereotype have been unjustly applied to both groups, young and old, this is a valid topic.

So, like the "isn't that museum terrible" threads, I watch warily and hope it doesn't get out of hand and continue to wonder how I ended up as moderator of this board.

Texas Steam
hkading@rypn.org

> Its also a shame today that older folks
> don't care enough to pass on what they know
> to the few members of the younger generation
> who DO appreciate the past.

> When all the Rich Melvins, Steve Lees, Linn
> Moedingers(sp?) and Doyle McCormacks are
> gone, who will run and maintain 844, 3985,
> 765, 4449, 700, 261, etc.?

> I'm afraid that by the time I have grandkids
> there won't be ONE 4-8-4 running to strike
> awe into them as RDG 2102 did for me when I
> was 8 years old and I saw her on the Blue
> Mountain and Reading.

> "young people" are made up of your
> children and grandchildren. In the end,
> where does the blame really lie?

> -Brian Wowak, 22yrs old.
Let me say one last thing,I am happy to pass along what I know to the young people, as long as their are willing to learn., i belong to a live steam club, and there has been many atime when I had to teach somebody new in the hoppy of live steam on how to fire, or to run and injector etc. Yes it all starts with the older genderation teaching the young people,,and ofcourse there are times when they can teach me a lesson,,so again sometimes all the young people have to do is ask.

cprh1b@attbi.com

> In the court of public opinion however,
> legal rules of evidence don't apply.
> Perception is reality. In truth, vandalism
> is a crime of youth, particularly teenagers.
> Statistics show that teenagers commit the
> vast majority of vandalism. Which isn't of
> course, to exhonerate the older folks from
> the things you cited. A good deal of the
> problem the "railfan" (not the
> enthusiast or preservation, their different)
> has been earned through theft, tresspass and
> general irresponsibility, hence the term
> "foamer".

> I applaud your volunteering, but you are an
> exception. Damn few 20 something year olds
> have the focus, the dedication and the
> humility it takes to volunteer @ a railroad
> museum, especially in an operating craft.
> Continue the good work and understand, the
> post was probably right, even if there
> wasn't a fair trial before the hangin'.

> You might wish that attitude didn't exist
> because its not fair that there's an
> automatic dismissal of a few good eggs like
> yourself, but unfortunately until teenagers
> quit being teenagers, there isn't a whole
> lot you can do other than conduct yourself
> as maturely as possible.

OK, I had to answer here:

All that some of us "under 30's" ask is that you put yourself back a bit, and look at it from our shoes. I'm guessing that you had a mentor. I'm also guessing (and hoping) that you have passed along some of what was passed on to you to others. I can just about guarantee that your parent's generation talked about your generation in the same way that you are generalizing about ours. Did it anger you? I'm guessing it may have.
Did it seem unfair. I'm sure it did.

Realize that generalizations do nothing but drive people away from involvement in a group. And I'll throw this back at you: how many times have you seen a "kid" turned away because of the way he looked, dressed, or because he was belittled for the lack of knowledge about a given subject, rather than being told the correct route? Would YOU stick around where your not wanted?

It happened to me. By people who should have known better. Interestingly enough, I received an apology 15 years later (at this year's ARM/ TRAIN convention, actually) from one gentleman in this group, one of the few of whom wasn't a jerk. This group is now realizing the error of its ways, but it is quickly dying on the vine becuase they knew everything there was to now, refused to part with the knowledge, riddiculed those who didn't know and ran the museum and tourist train as if it were their only fiefdom.

You make a difference in this world by starting with yourself first. I use the number one rule of being in a fraternity; replace yourself first. Always be looking for the "kid" who will replace you. I have two ten year olds and a twelve year old who volunteer here now, and can't wait to get themselves into a certain 2-4-0 Porter. They ask questions; they volunteer their time. Its a very humbling experience, for me anyway.

TJG



Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Alan-

Kudos to you and your group: I wish I was nearby! It sounds like a great place to volunteer, with what sounds like wonderful mentors. Keep up the good work; your youth are the steam mechanics of tomorrow!

TJG

> I cannot say that I have had quite the same
> experiance concerning older railfans. I ahve
> been working as a passenger train conductor
> for almost ten years with the Tennessee
> Valley Railroad in Chattanooga. Many of our
> museum's older members are very concerned in
> teaching those visitors that pass through
> our doors about our railroading history.
> True there are some older railfans and
> railroaders who are contemptuous of younger
> people. However, my general observations are
> that this is few and far between and that in
> some cases, the contempt of an older
> railroader or railfan is specific to one or
> two young people for individual reasons.

> I will also say that railfans do not take
> items off of locomotives, rolling stock or
> railroad property-thiefs do. Most thiefs do
> tend to be older as they have to know what
> it is they are going after. Most criminal
> acts involving juveniles involving property
> damage tend to fall into the area of
> vandelism. Having the railroad background
> that I have and having been a criminal
> justice major as an undergraduate student, I
> do not find it hard to believe that kids
> would torch a building. I've known that
> local kids used to break into our railyard
> and steal torpedos and fusees from the steam
> locomotives at night. To them, those were
> just large firecrackers, never mind that the
> kids could have been permanently maimed by
> them.

> As for impressing the importance of
> railroads and railroading on youth, a lot of
> the older members are working quite hard to
> support the improvement of our museum
> facilities so that we can do just that.
> Concerning the involvement of family in this
> pasttime, I know many people who have or are
> doing that. I also know a few members whose
> railfanning enthusiam won them a divorce and
> I am certiin that they tried to share their
> passion with their significant others. Also,
> I will share my passion for railroad history
> and preservation with anyone who will
> listen. Yes, our museum has had some female
> volunteers and even one female engine
> service employee who was a better
> fireman/fireperson than most of her male
> counterparts!


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Hey Rob, I'm 27, so I'm just around the corner from you I guess. All the more reason to stress the point. Sounds like you've been there too.
For me, at 2 I was hanging out in an ALCO of the old PH&D on runs down to the old Morton Salt plant in Marysville and the Diamond Crystal plany in St. Clair (if I was real, lucky, I got to ride to Detroit Gasket in Marine City). Still have the pictures to prove it, too ;-)

Oh, and my son (now almost 2 himself) wakes up in the morning saying "choo-choo" at the sounds of CN hitting the St. Clair Tunnel at speed. Heh heh.

TJG

> I have been around railroading as a hobby in
> real and model form since I was 3. Really.

> This thread has me so upset that I can
> barely type. I will not argue any of the
> points, and there are so many valid ones.

> Instead, I will say that what has me
> thoroughly upset and beside myself is that,
> at age 34, I am not one of those "damn
> kids" anymore!

> So, do I go directly to "old coot"
> or can I hang out in middle-age management
> for awhile?

> Either way, I welcome mature youngsters into
> the hobby and business.

> :-)

> Rob


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> I too am not real fond of these type of
> threads. And, although I do think some
> generalizations and stereotype have been
> unjustly applied to both groups, young and
> old, this is a valid topic.

> So, like the "isn't that museum
> terrible" threads, I watch warily and
> hope it doesn't get out of hand and continue
> to wonder how I ended up as moderator of
> this board.

Hume-
Thank god you are, as its one of the toughest jobs on the web. Not too many places where you find such passionated advocates for a given subject; sometimes that good, and sometimes not so good. From me anyways, thanks.

TJ


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Here's an idea...those of us who are twentysomethings and younger and are very active at our railway museums (and making an impact by contributing) ought to ban together and throw out all the old codgers and do things OUR way. Often some the old guys are a vocal minority who resist change and badmouth the young folks are the REAL problem. Keep the old guys who help us and are not afraid of passing along their experience to us and encourage our efforts. I am sick of blue haired old lady museums--pay the younger staff and professionalize!!!

> Its comments above that make me want to quit
> the rail preservation field.

> I have just about had it with the
> generalizations here, which seem to get
> worse as the thread goes along. I'm 27. I
> take the generalized comments against
> today's "young people" to heart.
> Its comments like this that drive those of
> us who never saw steam in Class 1 service,
> who grew up chasing F-Units, early GP's and
> Alco's, to throw up OUR hands. I truly
> thought that after the ARM/TRAIN convention
> people in our community began to realize the
> desparate NEED we have to get younger people
> involved. Instead, I hear comments from
> what, IMHO, seem like a bunch of children
> themselves who don't want to give up their
> toys, and love to blame everything on
> "those darned kids". Come on; we
> are not all that bad, and until those who
> should know better begin to stop make such
> generalizations they will continue turning
> those my age and younger away from rail
> preservation. What will be left? A bunch of
> glorified scrap yards. Think about it.

> I would ask if Hume might pull this. Mr. (Or
> Ms.?)Fahey's generalizations were about
> enough, don't you think?

> TJ Gaffney

Well here is my two cents...
I'm 26, I've never volunteered at any line or museum. I probably should. My father did on the Wilmington & Western many many moons ago. (Tom Gears, I really should come visit you guys...)

When I was younger coming up around the likes of 611 and 1218. The older folk always treated me well, never had problems. You're gonna have that bit of old vs. young debate no matter what field of interest you are in. Wether it is work or a hobby or a career. I wrote Carl Jensen a letter when I was around the age of 13 or 14. He was the then manager of steam operations for NS. He took the time out of his busy day to hand write me back a letter. (I wish I knew where it was)
He gave me ideas on volunteering at places like W&W or Stasburg or the local NRHS.

So the age debate will ALWAYS be here. It won't go away. Instead of debating that we should be sharing info that will all benefit us in the long run. Which everyone here does anyway. This is a great forum, I have learned many a new thing or six here. Kudos to all that help out.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

> Let me say one last thing,I am happy to pass
> along what I know to the young people, as
> long as their are willing to learn., i
> belong to a live steam club, and there has
> been many atime when I had to teach somebody
> new in the hoppy of live steam on how to
> fire, or to run and injector etc. Yes it all
> starts with the older genderation teaching
> the young people,,and ofcourse there are
> times when they can teach me a lesson,,so
> again sometimes all the young people have to
> do is ask.

"Genderation"? I like that, Pat, even if it was accidental. There are, indeed, some of us females who are fond of railroading and some of us are bringing our daughters up with the appreciation of trains. When I told my 13 year old daughter that a friend and I were thinking of taking on a caboose restoration project this year all she wanted to know was if she could help. The group I volunteer with treats me as an equal and they encourage young people. We have a 14 year old who can wrench along with the rest of the mechanics. Yes, he makes mistakes, but he learns and I've seen screw ups by adults that were worse than his. The history of the equipment matters to him, it's impressive. This probably belongs with another thread but I just had to comment on your elegant slip of the key.Genderation, I love it.

-Angie



Ladypardus@cs.com

Angie,

Check out the link below:

ISPWR
wyld@sbcglobal.net

Thanks so much. Applied for membership and I'm awaiting their reply.

Ladypardus@cs.com

William-

Now your on the opposite end, and we don't want that either. Calling people who could and should be our mentors name and attacking them just because of THEIR age doesn't make us any better on the generalization front. What we need is a mixture of ALL ages to keep rail preservation moving into the 21st century.

Nuff said-

TJ
> Here's an idea...those of us who are
> twentysomethings and younger and are very
> active at our railway museums (and making an
> impact by contributing) ought to ban
> together and throw out all the old codgers
> and do things OUR way. Often some the old
> guys are a vocal minority who resist change
> and badmouth the young folks are the REAL
> problem. Keep the old guys who help us and
> are not afraid of passing along their
> experience to us and encourage our efforts.
> I am sick of blue haired old lady
> museums--pay the younger staff and
> professionalize!!!


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Don't sweat it TJ - us old codgers don't take anybody seriously who can't even spell his suggestions.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net