Yes and Yes.

There was a period of time when the union that represented the stewards, porters, cooks and attendants worked hard to improve conditions for the workers. This could have been the result of a negotiated postion. It would be interesting to see an original floorplan of these cars.

Every one of these IC cars that I have ever seen or seen pictures of has a nice rusty spot under the shower area. It was also typical for circus cars and MOW cars to install showers in a similar manner and they always rusted in the shower area.

T7

Termite ( and the forum )

My recollection ( if I remember correctly ) when walking through IC 2 was the car did not have a shower and controls in the small room off the attendant's room... The room ( like many cars ) had a fold down Adams and Westlake sink, medicine cabinet and toilet... However unlike many cars where the shower is also included in this enclosure, I don't recall seeing a shower head ( or drain or controls ) in this little closet type room off the attendants room.... If that is indeed true, unlike many other business cars, I suspect the attendants did not rinse off and shower on top of the toile, they enjoyed a wide open shower in the vestibule.. The first photograph is the tiny room off the attendants room which would normally have a shower, and the second photograph, is the main shower shared between both of the larger bedrooms in IC # 2....


Dean Levin

Mr. Levin (and the forum)

Since you posted a photo of its vestibule shower, what is the condition of IC 16? The one photo of the car shows that it is an attractive-looking car, though I don't care for the 1960s IC interiors.

Who has an "as built" floor plan for either of these IC cars? I know that each railroad had preferences for office car designs but I find it hard to beleive that a 1879 car would have the exact same floor plan as a car built 37 years later.

What are the floorplans like in the SOO line office cars? How are they like the IC designs and how do they differ?

T7

You've probably already seen this but others may not have. Here is a latter day floor plan from the collection of Tom Parker's http://www.illinois-central.net .



A larger version of this image may be found here
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/f ... 2-plan.jpg
(Your browser may shrink it to fit your screen but you can click it back to full size.)

Thanks for posting that great diagram.... shows no shower off the attendants room.....

for Mr. Wilkins ( and the forum )

Today most people might know IC 16 / 9 as the "King Cotton" owned by the Columbus and Greenville... I last saw the car about 3 years ago or so, located in northern Georgia at the time.... The "King Cotton", was in theory nothing "exceptional" I guess you could say....It's exterior showed the signs of major neglect, with plenty of rot visible on the side sheets above the side sills... Although at one time this car was certified to operate on Amtrak, those glory days of operation are likely 20 years ago or so... The car has what looks like a good version of HEP ( although it appears to have a lot of 32 volt equipment inside ) ... and also has 27 pin communication lines... When I saw the car, it appeared to have a 32 volt dc motor generator, a Waukesha ice engine and generator and it had bolted pedestal trucks, grease bearings and appeared to last have an air date of 2004.... Fortunately the car has a real good rebuilt platform, which appeared to be made of stainless, however all the underbody equipment showed signs of neglect along with being obsolete... The roof has many years of welded patches throughout... ranging in shapes and sizes, which seems to be very much like a few other IC heavyweights....

The inside was a typical vanilla IC business car, with very plain wood, modernized light fixtures, and appeared to be mostly complete.... Not too sure what to say, just another car that needed to go inside about 20 years ago... Today it suffers the results of many years of neglect.....

Dean Levin

( I attach a current photo of the vestibule area where the shower is located .. note the excessive floor rot in this area ..)

Thank you for the description.

I've been inside the Paducah & Louisville's car, and while it had an interior rebuild in the 1980s following a fire, it has a similar, plain looking interior.

At least the IC kept some wood on the interior. I am familiar with post war L&N business cars, and they all had painted interiors to my knowledge.

We have had quite a thread shift!

Over the years I have heard several different woods named as being used in the interior of the #54. Rosewood is one of them. I have also heard Brazilian Mahogany. Of course, once you go through the swinging corridor door between the Secretary's room and the kitchen area the wall woodwork changes to Oak.

The #54 was built in 1927 using the frame of a steel Barney & Smith baggage-lounge built in 1914. One supposition that I've heard is that the interior woodwork may have been from an older car.

I will have to see what I can do for you regarding the photos. The car is stored inside one of the large storage buildings at OERM so I don't know what the lighting will be like. I'll be out there for the monthly Board meeting this Saturday; so either Saturday or Sunday.

Our web pagefor the car only has a couple of exterior views.

We have had quite a thread shift!

Well, murder will only get you so far and then you have to win on your own merit.

The diagram for IC 2 doesn't say shower but it does show a dot; I don't know if that's it. Diagrams for 5 and 6 (same source--see link) do specifically say shower.

#7 (no shower shown) is now in private hands and I think it's still located at Monticello, IL. That was originally car 17 until 1940.

Steve

That is a great diagram...although it does not appear to be an original "Pullman" plan but a later IC "rebuild" plan.
I agree...we do see a "dot" where the shower head is located.

Identifying wood is not always easy...I do it as part of my job yet I never nail down a definative answer until I have done much work. Rosewood is a very special wood and is one of those woods that is so rare that people are digging up the stumps in order to get small pieces to make knitting needles, fifes, chess peices and other trinkets.
These IC rebuilds all have an interesting thread that ties them together. They had used veneer covered plywood to rebuild the insides of those cars. Not all of them are the same either...the 16 (King Cotton) has a dark New World Mahogany in a pommeled grain...very lovely. The murder car has a browner African Mahogany. In the 16 there are glimpses of the original wood behind bunks and inside cabinets.

The subject that ties these threads together...zombies. Don't forget it.

Dots are a common symbol on diagram sheets for light fixtures. If there is only one dot shown in the vestibule, it has to be the light. I have a diagram of Soo 54, and it has a circle shown in the vestibule, which is labeled "SHOWER". Interestingly, none of the other cars seem to have it. The roster of business cars on the Soo that made it into recent times is as follows:

48...1909
49...1911
52...1921
54...1914
MINNEAPOLIS... 1956

48 was a former sleeper lounge that was placed on a steel underframe in 1926. It kept its original room configuration, and I understand it was used more as a "hospitality" car in conjunction with the another business car, as it had a larger open space in the lounge area than the other cars. This is the car I initially thought MOT was de-accessioning, and was interested, since it could be displayed as if in service, but alas, such was not the case. The steel underframe from this car is currently under sister car CURZON at the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel.

49 is the car at MOT, built as a business car; wood body on a steel underframe as built.I don't see any showers, either for the occupants or the crew.

52 was built as a steel business car by AC&F in 1921. Again, no showers.

54 is as Brian mentioned, with the shower on the platform clearly marked. There were several older business cars with open platforms at each end that certainly could have been donors of interior finish when this car was rebuilt.

The MINNEAPOLIS was built as a shell by Pullman in 1956, and the interior finished at Shoreham. It has a centrally located shower room accessible through the toilet rooms of both bedroom "A" and "B", and also from the "public" toilet along the aisle, so I suppose the crew could use that shower room when the occupants were out of the car. This car does not have a forward vestibule.

You're probably correct about it being the light.

Would a wood bodied car like IC 2 from 1883 have been built on a steel underframe or placed on one later? I mean I'm presuming it's not still wood!

Steve

It would have to be a retrofit. Structural steel wasn't even available in 1883 (the dominant material was wrought iron) much less used for car frames.

The ELY at IRM (carried on the roster as Nevada Northern 10) was built in 1889 and placed on a Commonwealth underfarme kit sometime later.

The 1911 built Soo 49 at MOT was built with it's steel underframe; the coaches that came from B&S that year were all steel, but the diners and the business car were wood bodies on full steel underframes. 1909 built Soo 48 was built as a wood car and retrofitted with a new underframe in the twenties. Soo 54, built in 1914 was all steel.

An interesting thought about Soo 54 occurred to me; that shower in the vestibule is the only shower in the entire car, and so was likely as much for the benefit of the occupant as it was for the crew. People were much more accustom to taking sponge baths when these cars were built. A shower was an unheard of luxury.

I attach a photograph of the side sheet / side sill area of Soo Line 49 taken last month.... Based upon the comments from Dennis, this car was built in 1911, with a steel underframe and wood body.... You can see in this photograph, the unusual transition at the bottom of the body, where you have a recessed steel section with the actual car body above it... ( showing rivets on two different sets of steel ) ... If this is a wood carbody on a steel frame, I suspect the Soo re-sheated the car with steel at some point....

I also include a photograph of the platform end roof condition, showing its obvious wood construction....

Unfortunately the interior of this unique car suffered pretty extensive water damage... I would be more than pleased to provide some current images of the interior should anyone find this of interest...... and my recollection when touring the car, was the car did not have a shower....


Dean Levin

Dean, I suspect the "rivets" in the side sheathing are actually roundhead wood screws with the slots filled. Sheet metal was screwed down through the siding into the framing of the wooden walls.

There's a sort of compromise/transition with both ends of the car - say, bolster to buffer - framed on composite wood and wrought iron, with only wood frame between the bolsters. If it hasn't collapsed yet, there's a Jim Crow from the west end of the Central of Georgia stored at Eureka Springs with this arrangement.

dave