Some things to consider here amongst the conjecture & "foam"........

Bev Fitzpatrick has turned an almost dead museum into the leading tourist attraction in the area in 6 years...VMT is now out of debt & financially stable. He & his staff know a little bit about fundraising and marketing.

Preston Claytor is chairing the committee. He is a career proffessional in the railroad industry.

Scott Lindsay is the lead on the technical side. Love him or hate him, he has the technical knowledge and the experience with the locomotive.

Jim Wrinn...well, he's certainly well connected in the industry, so to speak

Many other folks are involved who are connected in some way to the "old" NS Steam Program.

NS has been aware of this initiative for some time. These people know what they are doing. This is not a bunch of amateurs thinking they can go out and restore "Old 97"

Stay tuned.....

Very well said Gary!!!

I'm impressed with Gary's comments as well. Still, there is the possibility of a later CEO who won't be so supportive, like the fellow up in Canada who's been a subject of discussion here.

At the risk of stating the obvious, it may be that the best way to make sure we can keep steam running is to make it at least semi-profitable. That suggests regular operations on a regular route of some sort, like Strasburg but on a larger scale, what I've called the "Class I tourist railroad."

The question becomes, where do you run this? Where would be a good place, preferably on the "traditional" N&W, where this could work?

The demand just might be there, for the right place and price, if the ticket sales on the current steam program are any indication.

My best wishes to all involved that this succeed in bringing that magnificent machine back to life.

I have visited the new website, filled out the survey and made a cash donation towards the effort. My gut is that with the quality of the core group leading this effort its got at least a fighting chance of succeeding. Here's a few basic truths as I see them. These are strictly my gut opinions...you're welcome to disagree and your mileage may vary!!

Here's the challenges........

1. Money............. The ONLY way that a sufficient amount of funding will be generated for this effort ( keep in mind their stated objective is not only raise the funds needed to get her running again ( my wag-- $ 750,000-$ 1,500,000), but sufficient funding to establish a reserve ( $ 1- $ 2 million??) that will cover her long term maintenance and cover short term net operating losses as most excursion operations are money losers IF you include an honest long term capital reserve in the direct operating equation.

Therefore, assuming that the study committee determines that the minimum amount needed to be raised ( let's be easy) is $ 2 million dollars ( my gut is that it will be higher than that?) then the sub questions are;

A. Can we raise $ 2M from the general railfan/611 lovers fraternity?

Answer...A resounding NO !!

B. Where can we raise $ 2M for this effort?

Answer.... is in 2 parts

1. From a very short list of very well heeled people who have a connection to, and a love for the 611. There are a couple out there...only they know how much they love her vs. parting with their money.

As we on Rypn all know most of us foamers are not wealthy and for most of us a couple hundred dollar gift is a lot.

2. Grants from Foundations and other non-profits...Possible but takes forever and loaded with swimming pools full of peanut butter to swim through. Not a near term answer for sure, although it could be a source to buttress the long term maintenace piece?

Assuming that the committee comes up with a minimum dollar amount AND assuming that they figure out how to raise that money then the next critical question arises, to wit:

2..Active Life........... Can we secure an operating agreement with a Class 1 railroad that will ensure that if we make this multi-million dollar effort that the 611 will have an appropriate place to run and to achieve the basic objectives of this whole effort ( as represented in the mission statement) which is to represent the proud story of railroading's heritage and the railroad heritage of the City of Roanoke and the VMT by having an active operating carreer.

We all know that of the 2 eastern class 1 roads, one of them is not even worth asking as the answer is obvious.

The key to this whole equation is NS. If NS is willing to enter into an agreement wherein they committ to allowing the 611 to be operated xx days per year for xx years ( subject to a formal operating contract with all the mandatory commercial terms ( insurance, costs etc.) covered , then and only then does the whole effort become worthwhile and feasible. Remember, this is a long term project and to be feasible it needs agreements in place that have sufficient time in them to justify the investment, and agreements that survive a change in the CEO.
My strong suspicion ( hope) is that based on the folks on the committee, and the thoroughness with which this has been launched that there's a much better than even money chance that it will receive a warm reception in Norfolk.??

Who knows...against all odds her rebirth and successful roaming the east coast producing tons of good PR for NS/VMT,Roanoke might just spark a complete change of minds in Jacksonville???.....yea, I know then I woke up and smelled the coffee!!

Wouldn't it be great to have a best 2 out of 3 race out of Altoona up and around Horseshoe Curve with 611 representing NS and 614 representing Chessie...oops CSX with the winner getting the Claytor Cup for best engine in the nation??

Oh well, todays realities were only someone's dream yesterday.

Let's all do everything we can to help this effort. Please go to the site and give what you can afford and contribute in other ways if you're able.

I can hear her deep moaning in the valley now!!!

Ross Rowland

I've mused these questions over recently. Having been to the Roanoke area before, but not being from around there, I'm somewhat limited in my knowledge of the possible routes. That said, I think that running a limited, consistant program that maximizes ridership for each trip (the novelty will wear off with the general public), as well as optimizing the consumption of it's 1472 operating days over 15 years should be the goal.

Most people will not ride a 12 plus hour marathon trip. As big a steam fan as I am, I really don't want to ride a 12 hour trip anymore. I think about six hours for a mainline roundtrip is a reasonable target (say 11 am to 5 pm) with a one-way train ride/bus option available (maybe those taking the bus one-way get a stop to photograph the train passing by on the leg they don't ride). Since a place to turn either the locomotive or entire train is necessary, from my cursory examination of NS trackage out of Roanoke, it looks like a roundtrip to Lynchburg over the Blue Ridge Summit could be run in that length of time, with a minimal amount of time spent in the turnaround, and at least two different photo runby locations (no more scrapping the runby to save time like they did on a semi-regular basis - I remember this being a major criticism towards the end of the old steam program).

As for a schedule, operate these trips over three-day weekends, about once-a-month from May to October (Memorial Day weekend, nearest weekend to Fourth of July, a weekend in either late July or early August, Labor Day weekend, and Columbus Day weekend). Maybe tack a Friday photo-charter on a less busy route onto a couple of the weekends for the hardcore fans. Over a period of years, operating trips on a reliable schedule during major holiday periods should help sell-out trips consistently (don't over-saturate the market, burn out your volunteers, or make it hard for casual fans to find the trips).

Regarding on-board amenities and accommodations, first class just about always sells out on these trips anymore, so having some kind(s) of first class cars would seem to be a "no brainer". A short dome (maybe one with a lounge section below instead of just straight coach seats) would be nice, as well as some kind of tail car. As for food service for the rest of us, a counter car is going to be necessary, but it would also be really great if there were a full 48 seat diner serving a full-lunch, with at least a few items from the old N&W dining service menu included. It would also be really great if there were a baggage car or combine at the front with open doors (since open vestibule doors seem to be verboten these days) to stand at to listen and record (does anyone still do that?).

My guess is that a huge amount of the needed capital is already in place. That's not to say other donations aren't required, since there's nothing quite like the surprises found when rebuilding an old house or opening a retired steam locomotive.
I have little doubt that 611 will fire again, almost before you can say, "When will they rebuild the "A" to join her?"

Paul, I think these are great comments in that they are really speaking about a business plan. The only thing I would consider doing differently would be to drop the photo runs entirely; I understand each one essentially costs an hour in time. No need to tie a railroad up with that--but then, that's my opinion, and your proposal is somewhat different than what I thought up, so it still might be worthwhile.

An interesting point about a locomotive and train based out of Roanoke is that you may have more than one option for a destination. I seem to recall trips to Bluefield weren't too long, and maybe a run up to Shenandoah would be something to consider, too. (Is there still a turntable there? Is the wye still there? If both are gone, how much trouble would it be to rebuild that wye?) That's one of the advantages of basing an operation out of a junction!



My choice would have been more like that of a typical tourist operation--every weekend in the season, with daily operation as an option at the peak, for either a 50 day or 90 day season. This would be to improve overall equipment utilization; however, this proposal to be centered around three-day weekends could also work. My modification would be to consider a few other days, such as a Christmas or holiday special; we can thank "The Polar Express" for that market!



I like that full diner option, and an appropriate tail car, too, especially if the whole train can be turned to keep the order right in both directions; had both of those in mind for my own proposals.

The baggage car is great, too, but I wonder if open-window heavyweights are still an option. I hope they are; nothing like the ride you could get on those old twelve-wheelers (they were the best riding cars in the old program), and of course those open windows let in all the sound. Of course, they also let in the smoke and the cinders, particularly around the third car in the train--but, hey, that's steam railroading!

For reference--some earlier discussions on something like this:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31783

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32007

If you have your act together - like having a consistant, routine operation where everyone on the crew knows the plan well, can open enough traps to quickly detrain and entrain the passengers, and make sure they all know what is going on, have a well-defined and roped-off photo line and give everyone enough information so they can decide whether or not they are physically capable of participating in the runby - it doesn't have to cost an hour of the schedule to do a runby.

As for a route to run, I was going for doing something that can become reliable and routine. Boring for the hardcore fans, but welcome by the general public, for whom this is not supposed to be an "adventure". We've all been on excursions that became an "adventure", and I'm willing to guess that those trips turned-off more than a few passengers from taking a repeat trip. It should be like putting on a theatrical production - know your lines, hit your marks, get a standing "O" at the end. Everybody on the crew takes a bow and the passengers go home happy.

I'm not precluding other trip possibilities throughout the year, especially to other parts of the system (like Ohio, but that would be a personal bias). Bear in mind that if you divide 1472 days by 15 years, it comes out to just shy of 100 days under steam per year (98 point something). Clumping together operating days makes operating sense, and is also easier on the boiler, remembering that one of those days each time you operate will be used to bring the engine up to pressure. I don't think you should get her hot for less than a three day session at a time. Since 611 probably won't run as a company operation, minimizing demands on NS would be advisable, and most operating departments love routine. Maybe they operate most of October for the Fall foliage. Maybe there is a "Winter Spectacular" ala the old EBT days. Just be smart about utilizing the opportunity costs of each fire-up.

I chose the Blue Ridge Summit route partly because it's part of the historic home territory for the J. There is plenty of scenery going that way, it's got a grade to get 611 to "speak up" a little (it's so powerful that it hardly ever breathed hard with 20+ cars anyway) and it's a reasonable length of a trip for a mainline excursion. Let me leave you with a visual reminder of some of the views on that route, the first half of my 611/1218 dissolve show - the whole thing is only 6 minutes, with the Roanoke area shots mostly taken the first weekend of 611 trips in '82. (added benefit of some great tunage to go with it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3y1qpW1c_E

It's true--great minds think alike!

One additional factor I would consider would be whatever the destination or other stops would have for attractions. Think of how the Grand Canyon, Mount Washington Cog, Pikes Peak, Cass Scenic, and others have a scenic overlook as a destination. This won't apply to all operations, but some sort of attraction should be part of the package--say, as Harpers Ferry was for history fans on Chessie-CSX trips (some of the latter with commuter equipment, including at least one with Budd RDCs when MARC still ran them).



More great thinking, or at least I think so. . .I wonder if anybody at NS reads this, and might be taking notes. . .



No complaints about the music from me. . .

I just cleaned up the Wikipedia page on the J-class and the 611 to reflect, among other things, the Fire Up 611 committee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%26W_J_class_(1941)

Page did show the committe's formation but the subsection had gotten tagged due to it not meeting Wiki standards. Well, now it does! :-)

I think what has been alluded to in some of the previous comments is that the customer experience is key; the offering/inclusion of a steam locomotive is often downplayed in these ranks because of the truism that "passengers don't care what's up front" which is a significant self-defeating prophecy unto itself. Paul, you say it best and as I understand it the most: it needs to be a production. We have a theatrical machine, so let's find it the right stage.

What's pulling the train and what the train ride/experience is like should be near equals in the business plan and marketing. Undercutting what is pulling the train by making it indifferent to passengers is not a good long term strategy, but mainline steam operators are severely limited in how exactly they're able to do that -- vestibules, photo runbys and other opportunities, dining cars, observation/lounge car amenities, etc...

What I'd love to see are more events that are not necessarily excursion based but event based around a locomotive or particular train, striking the balance somewhere between block party and reenactment. The key is to make sure that long after the fans and history and train buffs have passed, that ordinary, every-day people who have zero inclination towards trains in the first place will think "this is worth every penny."

There's been an excursion train running out of chicago regularly, a dinner train with flair of a murder mystery.

http://mysteryltd.com/MurderOnTheTrain.htm

Wow, that certainly is an "old school" website. I don't think I've seen that many animated GIFs on one web page since about 1997.

"Like" to Kelly's comments....these things are being discussed

I think I have seen cameras mounted pointed at the rods on engines and TV's scattered around the train.