Open House - Southern Railway No. 1200

Termite7 · **Joined:** Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm **Posts:** 397

Are we 100% certain that there were actually "colored" signs in the car? There were a lot of places where signs could have been placed yet I never remember seeing them and they never show up in photos(that I have seen). Like the water-fountains at Sears...everybody knew which fountain was which...no signs were needed (ugly times).

The crews that put the trains together would know which end was which...and the "colored" section would be put towards the front of the train. The passengers knew which end to go to...why would they need signs?

T7

John E. Rimmasch · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:35 pm **Posts:** 374

Thank you for the comment, T7.

I would invite all of us as historians and preservationists to answer this question. This is what we struggle with; We have first hand accounts from passengers, both colored and white that say "I clearly remember the signs.....it was right here.....or wait, maybe it was over here.(?)"

The second issue we face is this; The segregation laws were different from State to State and enforced differently from State to State. Just pick a random year.....say 1944. OK in 1944, there are states that do not have segregation laws, where-as we have some southern states with very firm and strict segregation laws. In the north, less enforced if even enforced at all, in the south, very much enforced.

The question on the table: If these signs were in the cars....how did they handle the signs in non-segregated states?

So, T7 to answer your question. No.....I am not sure that they existed and I am not sure how they looked even if they did. That is the question. Thus for now, the car is being delivered with no signs.

Kindly,

JohnE.

Gary Gray · **Posted:** Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:55 pm

We own N&W P2 Class 2 compartment coach 512. It originally had a door separating the two compartments. The N&W prior to 1964 operated passenger service in two segregated states, Virginia & North Carolina, and three integrated states, Maryland, West Virginia, and Ohio. This is strictly anecdotal, therefore not verifiable historical data, but from what I understand there were brackets on the doors in or into the cars for removable signs. The train crews would remove or replace the signs designating "Colored Occupancy" at the appropriate state borders.

The partition, minus door, can be seen in the background of this photo from the Pete Lerro photo charter in July.

:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151724894272545&set=a.10151724893932545.1073741827.675742544&type=3&theater

As an aside, the Roanoke Chapter also formerly owned 2 sisters to this car, 1204 & 1205. They were sold to Waccamaw Coast Line, later Carolina Southern. I have heard that 1204 is now owned by Iowa Pacific. I'm not sure what happened to 1205.

Dave · **Posted:** Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:58 pm

A Jim Crow of similar vintage is at Gold Coast Railroad Museum in Miami - or was......anyhow, the signs were printed on 3 sides of a triangular stick which rotated in brackets on either end, so the side facing the car could be turned and legible. One side said "colored," one said "white", and the other I saw had the initials MRHS for Miami Railroad Historical Society on it, which I presume was a post preservation alteration. I couldn't tell you what it may have said (if not left plain) originally. I think it was a SAL car, but other Southern roads may have also use this type.

dave

wilkinsd · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:32 am

Dave wrote:

A Jim Crow of similar vintage is at Gold Coast Railroad Museum in Miami - or was......anyhow, the signs were printed on 3 sides of a triangular stick which rotated in brackets on either end, so the side facing the car could be turned and legible. One side said "colored," one said "white", and the other I saw had the initials MRHS for Miami Railroad Historical Society on it, which I presume was a post preservation alteration. I couldn't tell you what it may have said (if not left plain) originally. I think it was a SAL car, but other Southern roads may have also use this type.

dave

This is the SAL combine at GCRM. It was restored at Steamtown in the early 2000s. I just looked through my photos from a 2010 visit to GCRM and didn't see the sign, but I do remember it. Your description is accurate, but I only remembered the "White" and "Colored" sides.

Dave · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:15 am

I'm remembering it from 1969-72, so it is likely that there were changes made during the Steamtown restoration which replaced a lot of the fabric of the car. When I saw it at Steamtown during a TRAIN conference it was sort of a frame on trucks with a lot of new metal in it.

dave

Stephen S. Syfrett · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:38 am

I have photos on my Facebook page of the SAL combine interior signage, but I'll have to change settings to make the images "public" later this evening. Sorry for the inconvenience...and thanks to Sandy for pointing out the problem so soon. :>)

Here is the link to a new topic that has a link to the photos I referenced:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35844

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:15 am

"This content is currently unavailable
The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page."

Apparently you (or whoever) need to make the photos "public" on Facebook.

203 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:40 pm

Photo by George Votava

RR_GraphixGuy · **Posted:** Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:09 pm

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

My wife is a professional graphic artist.

Among the many things that we've learned the hard way, and which has to be pounded forcibly into the heads of many "newbies" and clients:

1) Computer monitors don't always show color accurately, even when high-priced and routinely "calibrated."

2) Garbage in, garbage out. Your digital camera, flatbed scanner, negative, or slide film may not render the colors perfectly.

As somebody who was one of those folks who could often, with stunning accuracy, tell you just by looking at a slide whether it was taken with Kodachrome, Ektachrome, or Fujichrome based on its color rendition alone, this entire argument on the accuracy or lack thereof of a car's paint job based on what we're seeing on Internet pictures is not only ridiculous, it's a [BLEEP]ing waste of time, pixels, and electrons.

I thought I made a comment here that I made on the corresponding thread at TrainOrders, but apparently that's not the case. Anyway, at TO I mentioned that all of the photos posted were probably taken with "Auto White Balance" turned on (which affects recorded color) and nobody has done any color adjustment to these photos prior to posting here. I'm not in Kentucky with the car, I've never seen it in person myself, and I wouldn't dare say that the colors I perceive in these pictures is the same color I would perceive in person.

I love Alexander's comment because it reminds me of the long discussions on the Train Simulator message boards over a decade ago about what RGB values produced correct hues of UP Yellow, Daylight Orange, and Pullman Green (just to name a few.) Then a person would take a screen shot of his or her latest creation and upload it to the forum. I'm guessing 100 people would collectively perceive probably 67 or more different versions of what he/she told us was Rio Grande Gold. As a result, the downloaded user-created content for a particular railroad livery from different "authors" would almost never match once you assembled a consist on your computer. I think some of them pushed for establishing an accepted standard, but for some reason the majority rejected that idea because they couldn't wrap their head around the concept that not all monitors render color the same.

Well, at least nobody is counting rivets... ;-)

Tavor · **Joined:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 pm **Posts:** 200

Beautiful resto job on the car. I just wish the Smithsonian would put a pair of old roundhouse doors in their buildings. It seems weird not to have even the option of future excursion service with their equipment stuck in the basement.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:48 am

RR_GraphixGuy wrote:

Well, at least nobody is counting rivets... ;-)

I read this about one minute after I just compared the Votava photo with the new images, examining just exactly how big the numbers were and how many rivets they were up from the bottom and down from the top..........

..... and then quietly screaming "they forgot the rain gutters over the vestibules!!"..........

I think I'll just go to bed now.

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:57 am

Linked as a reference to the signs:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35844

Other discussions with "Jim Crow" elements:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6408

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33580

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34539

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34978

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35005

Lincoln Penn · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm **Posts:** 841

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

RR_GraphixGuy wrote:

Well, at least nobody is counting rivets... ;-)

I read this about one minute after I just compared the Votava photo with the new images, examining just exactly how big the numbers were and how many rivets they were up from the bottom and down from the top..........

..... and then quietly screaming "they forgot the rain gutters over the vestibules!!"..........

I think I'll just go to bed now.

Relax. The rain gutters are on the restored car.

At least, they were last Saturday, anyway.

etalcos · **Posted:** Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:55 pm

John,

Nice work! When I looked at the car in Chattanooga 20 years ago, I'd have bet it would have gone to RR car heaven, not the Smithsonian.

A few respectful comments. Pete's last name is spelled Claussen... Did you folks go back to the cast iron shoes/pull the cylinder bushing, as it would have been in the period you're desiring to represent? It'll be interesting to see how the green looks with the basement lighting -- as you've said, the green is most assuredly not what Southern used. We have a sample of that green from original Southern Railway stock that we bring out on special occasions as a "drift card" of sorts. I notice the round windows in the vestibule doors in the Votava photo, a feature I don't recall seeing in the modern era (post 1970).

Again, nice work.

ETA