He gently pointed out to you that an 84"-drivered six-coupled is not exactly a poster child for 'helperless' operation on a railroad with 3% grade. I wouldn't have been nearly as tactful. But... why on earth bother with a 3460 when the better answer, all around for all concerned, is something like 2926?

Bigboy 4023, I strongly urge you to learn as much as you can about a subject before commenting on it. I was shop help when 4960 hauled 5 loaded ballast cars and 3 commuter coaches from Willaha to the station then called Apex with Mr. Franzen running and Mr. Ferguson firing in 1996. While I have burns from 18 and was on some of the test runs on 29 in 2004, I can honestly state 29 and 18 are well liked machines at GCR. 4960 became known as BB or Black B#@#h by some of the shop hands. While I have not been an employee there in 15 years I can tell you there are people there today dealing with the business realities in a solid professional manner as I stay in contract with them.
Further, the difficulties of operating the branch were well known by the AT&SF and they videoed the branch for engineer training. I ran into one such engineer at the Nevada Northern on an locomotive rental. The combination of grades and speed make it a difficult railroad to run. While the surviving Santa Fe power to operate at least one trip on the branch are modern power It is interesting to see that super power was not the prefered power for the branch. Infact there was a lot of 2-10-2, 4-8-2 double headers to handle passenger movements. You have areas where the gradient change is 5 or 6 percent 3 percent uphil to two or three percent down hill within a short distance that you transverse without stopping. It is a railroad that pushes both skills and equipment.

Robby Peartree

P.s. GCR sees very little of the canyon from the train. But when people asked if it went into the canyon we would tell them it was a one way trip.

https://www.atrrm.org/2018/03/heritage-rail-ridership-attendance/

Here's the 2016 numbers... sure seems like steam may make a difference.

To answer my own question, it looks like the top lines that never run steam are grapevine (although they have in years past), Branson Scenic, Napa Wine Train, Royal Gorge, and Conway (again have run steam in recent years).

I will just say that GCRY is of no interest to me so I am not up on all the issues at hand. I'm merely thinking about 3460 not becoming another experiment like 614 became. GCRY for all I care could be run with modern GE passenger units and Amfleet or horizon style cars. It's one of those tourist traps I try well to avoid.

2926 is an interesting choice but isn't she a bit on the heavy side for GCRY? 2926 is after all heavier than 3751.

Robert

Yeah... A 40 mph railroad over historic Santa Fe right of way, with multiple Santa Fe and Harvey House era structures is a "tourist trap" with "no interest."

Even though I personally have planned both trips to Williams around steam events (3751 and the most recent Lerro charter) I think the "normal" train is quite classy and would love to take a ride in one of their ️dome cars or Parlour cars one day.

ATSF is not on my list of interest either. And Harvey Houses don't impress me much. Alot of hi hoopla over nothing. Heavy weight steel diner cars did in the Harvey Houses just as any advance in technology replaces the previous one. Sorry, Aside from the UPRR western roads are not really of interest either. I prefer the railroads of Eastern PA from the 1990's. I do take a side interest in the Milw because the catenary.

Robert

To each their own, but I think we lost an opportunity to have a working main line steam locomotive that did not need the usual business case to justify the couple million dollars it takes to bring them back to life -- because of the "experiment" and expected publicity for bio coal.

Isn't the lack of a business case the reason 614 is parked?

Brian

Willful ignorance is the worst kind. If you think the GCRY is "tourist trap," please don't look at the Strasburg. Or, for that matter, the Valley RR, Conway Scenic, Cuyahoga, or any of the other "successful" runs. "Tourist traps" pay the bills and keeps this stuff alive.

You profess a desire to not see 3460 sidelined. The GCRY, IF they had the desire (and I can probably say that some would have that desire in spades, but still have to answer to corporate higher-ups now), would be a "perfect" home for the 3460--passenger service at speed and pulling hard on a Santa Fe line. So what if it's once a month and you have to put up with a diesel and several shiny cars? Got a better place to run? I'm all ears.




The same data set can be used to "prove" steam makes no difference whatsoever. Examples:
Maine NG RR Museum in Portland: 42K with rare steam, mostly diesel.
Nearby WW&F, much more historic, more steam by far: 5,346.

Look at the low figures for, among others, Western Md. Scenic, Steam Into History, Prairie Dog Central, Nevada Northern, Laona & Northern, and Everett, all of which I believe are mostly steam or at least are/were marketed as such.

Location, location, location. And marketing.

I've also found several major players that should be on this list that aren't, probably because they're not in ATTRM: Verde Canyon RR (which pulls in substantial numbers), Arizona Railroad Museum in Chandler, Travel Town in L.A., and the McCormick RR Park in Scottsdale (all of the latter in a major metro area).

Naturally there are other factors such as location, scenery, and marketing. The way I read it, all of the top attended lines run steam (of varrying amounts..). The two at the top of the list run steam very regularly in past years, and only recently dropped it down. The next 2 continue to run steam almost exclusively.

The best case for location and marketing comparison is the Durango vs. Cumbres ridership.

The Hocking Valley finally has their 060 Baldwin running. They also have 3 Rock island coaches and 3 open air cars to pull behind it. So far it has been working. They do a steam special on the weekends.

Never really sure how things get twisted around on this forum? This place drives me crazy.

I realize if 3460 were to operate on the GCRY she would need diesel assistance from the old Alco units. Someone above mentioned running GCRY steam without diesel helpers. All I was pointing out is the limitations of the LS&I #29 which was never built for speed but pulling power for hauling those rusty red iron ore pellets in Michigan. I was also trying to point out that 4960 is a bit larger than #29 is and more capable of pulling 6 or 7 Harriman coaches unassisted. #4960 used to put on quite a show in CB&Q excursion days on the mainline running at speed with a fair amount of weight tied on to her draw bar including a water tender with no diesels.

The GCRY fell out of favor with me after they changed hands a couple of times and steam stopped being the main focus in favor of the more modern streamliner appearance. I seem to remember the original intention of GCRY was to restore and operate 4 ex LS&I locomotives after their failed attempt at ordering 4 Chinese steam locomotives due to political unrest over in China.

Another original ATSF route that is over looked is the Arizona California Railroad which I prefer to the GCRY. Seeing 2926 earn her keep in revenue freight service for a year would impress me alot more than GCRY. A&CRY is sadly a poor choice because of slow speeds and old track.

Robert

You are delusional if you think 2926 will be used on freight more than a handful of break in runs, and photo specials etc...

Not delusional. Just day dreaming of steam freight. That was the nice thing about UP. Some times 3985 would be pressed into freight service in years gone by.

Robert

I have an answer to this question. I have ridden both the C&TS and the D&SNG and can tell you that the two railroads are as different as night and day. On the Silverton, the scenery has always been the pull. For well over 100 years it has been world famous for WHERE it is, not WHAT it is. The scenery would continue to be the pull if the railroad dieselized tomorrow. Those of us in the RR heritage community would go completely bug-f***, but the RR would survive on its scenic fame.

The C&TS, on the other hand is all about the railroad and railroading. Yes, the scenery is great, but it has a much more "railroady" feel to it that just screams STEAM. This is borne out by the fact that they still run photo freights and double headers. The management willingly and regularly do stuff that celebrates the railroad's freight heritage. And this requires steam. Take the steam away from the C&TS and it would whither away pretty fast. IMHO!

If the GCRY really wanted Chinese steam, there are a couple of QJ class locomotives in Iowa not doing much.