There's quite a few follow up observations that deserve a response-especially N6C's , but since I'm knee deep in pivot tables and getting lunch at 2:00, I'm going to address to address a couple of 6-18003's points here now.

First, while I cited the hypothetical possibility that the Chapter could be "at fault", in no way do I think that is reasonable. They were moving the ball and if the agreement needed to be amended in some way, well, the NPS is the specialist on their rules, so they should have led the way. I'm 3/4 tempted to file a FOIA to find out exactly whiskey tango foxtrot happened here. I have an insurance background and I know there's a rule that if two parties contract, and one of the parties draft the contract, the construction of ambiguous stuff is to the benefit of the non-drafting party. That should apply here. If there was a problem, it's ALMOST CERTAINLY the NPS' fault.

I've seen the NPS incoherent indifference before. Kip, to his credit recognized the potential benefit of bring 113 as a visitor-but he was thinking a Railfest display.

At the time, Steamtown's visiting equipment specialist was a former interp ranger, who had spent most of his time creating fictitious characters with an Irish brogue aka "Father Murphy" and "Seamus the gandy dancer". (Cultural appropriation?

He would send of these forms to Mr. Kimmel without explanation, instruction or contact. Then the Railfest meeting would happen, he'd be questioned on the status of the visit and the answer was "I mailed a form, they haven't responded" I became involved when Bob asked me how he was supposed to answer the question on the cookie cutter form, what do they mean "is this an exercise of first amendment rights, it's a locomotive?"

The problem with Kip was that he had no mechanical background and couldn't see that his shop managers weren't always being completely candid about things. 2317 went down in 2010, most of that year was spent watching rapidly diminishing flue time.

Paperwork is synonymous with government, not much you can do there. Not everyone is cut out to work for or with government, but government is still supposed to work with YOU, in their own backwards way. SNHS couldn’t even do that.

I’m debating on starting a fresh thread to suss out, in detail, exactly what the condition of 3713 currently is.

The more that is written the sadder it gets.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Steamtown just received over $600,000 specifically earmarked for locomotive restoration, but rather than put it toward 3713, for which we were previously told "additional fundraising" was to take place, they are putting the majority of it, almost $500,000, toward restoring a diesel switcher that would be mostly used to putter around the yard and for short trips. Wouldn't the money be better served to help finish a 28 year and counting restoration project, to bring back a mainline steam locomotive after a 10 year plus absence? Nothing done there has any rhyme or reason or makes any sense. Hopefully at least the remainder goes to 3713.

John

Actually the shop forces need to be restaffed before being refocused. Seriously, the first step is going to be unobservable. It will be a new Superintendent and the Regional Office recognizing that after the 1995 grand opening, there's been a steady reduction in any measurable parameter of reasonable expectable deliverables and that enormous damage has been done in the past few years both from what was done and what was not done.

In large part that is because Steamtown is unique within the park system and unlike other units, it must develop staff internally-they simply aren't going to find qualified mechanical or operating staff in other parks. The Maintenance Manager at Gettysburg has a PD that's similar many other Civil War Sites. Nobody else deals with air brakes.

In all candor, I think the nature of the departure of the last Superintendent (pro tip: when applying for any employment of an existing position; always ask why the incumbent departed) should be a clue to the new person.

First. I'm looking for is efforts to repair the shattered relationships with partners/supporters and volunteers-and that's going to take a certain set of people skills that I know everybody will be surprised to see me admit I don't have in my wheelhouse.

In all candor, I don't think some of those relationships can ever be repaired; it might be necessary to establish new relationships with new groups, but let's be blunt, Steamtown now has a reputation of not playing well with others.

Second I'm looking for actionable, attainable and clearly defined goals. We need "three of four operating steam engines" is an example of where slogans have been substituted for strategy. Endless speculation about CP 3377 isn't what I mean either.

Money is always going to be an issue; it looks like in the NPS "Greenbook" the listed staffing is 44 Full Time Equivalents and the FY 24 budgetary request is $6.7m vs $6.4m enacted for FY23.

See page 58 of 529.


https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files ... df-508.pdf

Ultimately before anything else; I suspect resolving the HVAC issue is job one.

It is my understanding that terms of the bequest was that the funds be used for that particular engine as the donor had some particular interest in or affection for it. It is perfectly reasonable that the moneys be accepted by the IHS as "restricted funds" and expended in accordance with donor intent.

While I don't know that I'd consider it as big a deal as those cited in the article link in Scranton Yard's post; and while there are certainly capacity limits with a 600HP switcher that doesn't have transition; it does afford enough power to take a coach or two to the hotel. It might even be able to go to Carbondale. I'm hoping that it will operate regularly, both for the benefit of visitors as well as the new volunteers that need to be recruited and trained as soon as possible.

It'd be nice to go there when I'm living at Shady Acres and the staff decides the residents could use a field trip, so they load the continent residents in the electro-bus and tell some young un' I used to volunteer here-look at this hologram generated from an old digital picture from my AI-phone.

That makes sense then, thanks for clarifying. The article mentioned the stipulations as being that the money was to be used for a locomotive project, to be completed in a timely manner.

John

I see Cherie Shepherd's tenure as superintendent of STEA as being indicative of a long-needed fundamental shift in how the Park Service does business in Scranton. Changes may or may not have been made in a way that would be the easiest for folks to understand and/or accept, but that does not mean that the end result will be a bad one. Suboptimal perhaps, but not worthy of garment rending.

My take is:
The Park Service knows it needs more of what I referred to when I used to talk with Kip as "attractions". By this I mean moving stuff that brings in the visitors and helps tell the story.
NPS has experience in offering artifacts for interpretation and in preserving static artifacts and natural resources.
NPS has experience with rail ops.
The challenge at STEA is largely one of the lack of coordinated artifact preservation and the inability to properly manage the shops.
Operational restoration, maintenance, and operation of steam equipment are expensive, the latter two are why the railroads readily adopted diesels.
The Park Service never developed the expertise necessary to operate the shops.
The non-renewal of the agreement with the local RHS re:3713 has more to do with a realization that a high-stepping Pacific is not an operationally sound choice for use on a main that is speed restricted to 25mph (someone please fact check this number) and that the investment of large sums to run on a line that one does not own/control may not be the best use of funds and volunteer time and effort.
Years ago, my vision was to develop a volunteer corps that were shop trained and who worked with a smaller crew of NPS preservation specialists in the shop. I believe NPS has realized that the shop, given the staffing level (even before the large attrition occurred) and the lack of NPS expertise in managing such an endeavor, could do no more than perhaps tread water, especially considering the interruptions due to the necessity of shop staff having to perform ops work.

My conclusions are:
The non-renewal of the agreement to restore 3713 does not mean that NPS is not going to work with partners, it just means they are re-evaluating their needs. Evidence is the recent work with the IHS to coordinate the restoration of the SW-1. NPS also continues to work with ARHS/TriState in the utilization of the F3 ABA set.
NPS is using the attrition in the shop to redeploy how the shop is used. Since my idea of creating an expanded volunteer force was DOA (rightly so probably), the alternate is to maximize the utilization and interpretive value of the shop by contracting out the operation of the shop to an entity with experience managing the maintenance, and maybe some restoration, of vintage rail equipment.
NPS will increase the amount of "moving stuff" using diesels and not steam. Static steam equipment will be used for interpretive purposes.
NPS will not use money to restore equipment to run on rail it does not control and/or own. So the non-NPS F3 ABA set is used for a large portion of the main line running.
The SW-1 announcement makes a lot of sense. Working to generate more activity in the yard (which NPS does own/control) has been a topic of conversation for at least ten years. SW-1 will be perfect for yard demonstrations. It also indicates the shift to more diesel ops.

It will be interesting to see if the desire and ability to perform more operations in the yard result in an initiative on the part of NPS to move out some of the derelict equipment so that wider ranging yard ops can be more safely performed for the general public.

The only positive outcome of Cherie Shepherd's tenure as superintendent is the fact that her reign of terror has come to an end. Any progress that was accomplished under Sup. Conway came to a grinding halt. Artifacts were destroyed with no consideration of other rail preservation groups. The physical plant is falling apart. Seasoned staff jumping ship.

Perhaps worst of all is the damage done on a community level. Aside from the fractured relationship with the local RHS, she also battled with several groups that partner with the park on an annual basis, and even the host railroad. Once volunteers leave, once donors leave, once you change the dates of annual events, people don't come back. And the job of rebuiding those bridges becomes exponentially harder for any decent superintendent who follows.

If your read is correct - that the NPS doesn't see a value in restoring steam or specifically the 3713, then what harm is it for the RHS to continue fundraising for a disassembled locomotive? If the NPS doesn't want to focus on excursions beyond the yard limits, then why prevent contractors from taking over that aspect?

My rough understanding is that the NPS gave the RHS a contract renewal that they couldn't accept. One that was purposely drafted to end the partnership. Was this to take credit for the final few strides? More likely, it was to purge the park of volunteers who had a reason to be there - volunteers who pushed the administration to meet goals, meet deadlines, and might blab online about the condition of the park.

One thing that is for certain, for better or worse, is that the future of the park can no longer be in the hands of a single person. SNHS needs to be on whatever the park service's version of probation is and they need a multi-person board to manage it.

@ Scranton Yard

My take is:

We agree that “moving stuff” is of prime importance. We live in a dynamic age; and stuff needs to move to engage visitors. Maybe the NPS knows it needs more of that; but it either doesn’t believe it or they institutionally resent it. The late Terry Gess used to lament that people would ride the train and skip “the muhzeum” and Kip regularly talked about the need to get people into the “core complex”.

Time after time, we’d bring an engine onto the turntable and people all throughout the core complex would emerge like ants at a picnic to watch the "spin and in" and they wouldn’t learn that attractions draw and engage visitors.

“NPS has experience with rail ops.”

I don’t understand this statement. Outside of the limited, off the general rail system replicas at Promontory; where? Yes there are parks (Grand Canyon) have passenger rail, but they are operated by outside contractors. There’s been an exodus from Steamtown in recent years, accelerated but not caused by C19, so the experience was limited and now it’s seriously diminished.

“The challenge at STEA is largely one of the lack of coordinated artifact preservation and the inability to properly manage the shops.”

True. But the site has been in NPS hands since Miami Vice was in production; and the grand opening was when Bill Gates was still selling blue screen of death software. If they haven’t figured it out by now, how is that going to change, what is the mechanism or the incentive? To quote the late Bob Patterson “the pay is the same whether you march or fight”. One of my fellow volunteers used to sarcastically quip- “coaches should be lettered “L A C K O F W A N T O”.


“Operational restoration, maintenance, and operation of steam equipment are expensive, the latter two are why the railroads readily adopted diesels.”

Railroads adopted diesels for a lot of reasons; operating flexibility, reliability, controllability, safety, ease of maintenance. Diesels weren’t just less costly, they provided more value, but then again we’re discussing an operating museum (are we?) not a common carrier railroad. The distinction IS important.

With regard to the termination of the agreement; since the NPS has left public commentary to the Chapter; we actually don’t know the reason. In fact, at the time the agreement was put on ice, which was weeks before I cleaned out my locker, staff was given a “gag order” by HRH and told any public comment would be considered insubordination.

More to the point; when the first discussions about the creation of what became the IHS were being held (Superintendent Conway, the late Tom Shore and me) we wanted to understand her philosophical viewpoints to ensure our time, effort and expense would be worthwhile.

We brought up the very consideration you made. We pointed out the engine wasn’t designed for the Pocono Mountains or modern contemporary operating speeds, and while interpreting the archetypical crack passenger express might be the crown jewel, a freight engine (such as IC 790) interpreting branch line service might be better as such an engine was capable of switching and Carbondale trips-plus it would be far happier at modern Pocono Main speeds. To be clear, this was in the “three to four” engines phase and we were suggesting the ”next” restoration candidate after 26/3713.

However, we may not have been clear about the suggestion, and she thought we meant drop 3713. She told us told us that given the amount of time and effort expended it was more attainable than another engine (true, still is) and they needed to finish the project as abandoning it would be injurious to public relations and the relationship with a dedicated partner (that IS a valid consideration); yet that is EXACTLY what they did.

“The non-renewal of the agreement to restore 3713 does not mean that NPS is not going to work with partners, it just means they are re-evaluating their needs.”

Again, speculation. Since there’s no public disclosure of the motivations or reasons behind the hot potato treatment; we simply don’t know what it means. This by the way, the idea that they do and we accept is part of the culture of unaccountability that bedevils the entire organization.

“Evidence is the recent work with the IHS to coordinate the restoration of the SW-1.’

“The SW-1 announcement makes a lot of sense”

Since the IHS is the official “friends” group they better damn well get along; everybody on that Board is tolerant enough to put up with the NPS bovine excrement factory-I was not. Keep in mind this effort is made possible only by a fortuitous windfall, restricted purpose testamentary bequest, not enlightened fundraising and capital allocation. I think it will be a useful engine; but it’s not STEAM. Excessive use or reliance and we go through another round of “Dieselville”.

NPS also continues to work with ARHS/TriState in the utilization of the F3 ABA set.

Necessity is the mother of invention-and accommodation. Of course this was Kip’s idea, but in some ways they F3’s became a crutch (NOT ARHS/TRI-STATE’s fault).

I often wonder if he would have been more receptive to the idea of a season long, or recurrent visit by 113.

“NPS is using the attrition in the shop to redeploy how the shop is used.”

This attrition was obvious to anybody who (should have) reviewed the employee census. This is not novel, it’s a form of a concentration risk-specifically “mass superannuation”.

“contracting out the operation of the shop to an entity with experience managing the maintenance”

Any candidates? How long do you think this will take for the RFP. And we know how well they contract, don't we? Say where is 1021? Anybody know?

“NPS will not use money to restore equipment to run on rail it does not control and/or own.”

No need for anything then. DL controls pretty much everything.

I think we agree except for one thing: I'm fairly certain it's mandated that NPS units have final day to day authority vested in a Superintendent.

Was the boiler on 3377 ever actually checked or just a visual?




All I can say is that a full-throated pitch was made by legitimate entities during the Trump administration and the NPS wouldn't budge.



Yes and no. The DL is a contracted operator. Penn Northeast owns the rail. Steamtown has or had exclusive rights to run steam on the main. What happens to that little contractual carve out if SNHS stops running excursions for a protracted time? What happens if Amtrak comes to town?

@6-18003

1.) I don't know about the nature or extent of any boiler survey, assuming one was done. Was there a follow up after Bruce Mowbray answered your post? I am informed that he retired (big loss, good guy, really helped me with firing-not sure where you can get a replacement.)

viewtopic.php?t=41333

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews ... candidate/

Now as bad as that non-decision with no decision criteria or available resources is; its publication as newsworthy shows us no matter how many times Lucy pulls the football…

2.) The rat’s maze of ownership issues aside; unless something has changed in the last five years, the DL controls the main line, the running track and the yard. If Scranton Yard is correct, then the only thing that’s going to happen is an emergence from the roundhouse and sitting on the turntable.

3.) Maybe there was more than one pitch? I distinctly remember a brief mention of a potential concessionaire in Railpace Magazine a couple years ago.

4.) If it is true that the NPS intentionally sabotaged the relationship with the Chapter; that would be consistent with the way the devious passive aggressives that inhabit bureaucracies operate. A formal definite announcement that they had affirmatively decided that was no foreseeable use for the engine, so the restoration was to be terminated invites irate calls to Congresscritters. Now it’s much easier to just let something slip by the wayside and say nothing. No “attack surface”.
Now if these seems familiar, perhaps you’ve read this soon to be 80 year old classic:

https://www.openculture.com/2015/12/sim ... anual.html

Of course, it could be this (just got in the mail, my next read)

https://qz.com/967554/the-five-universa ... -stupidity

Or it could be a combustible, no fissile alloy of both.
The simple reality is that appearances matter and at this point the NPS looks like they jettisoned off a long-suffering partner for no obvious reason

5.) I don’t know if there’s a forfeiture of rights in the operating agreement; and if there’s an exclusive right to run steam-powered excursions; regular operations ceased in 2012. Would the 765 trips count? As for Amtrak, there was no reasonable economic case before COVID, now the commuter base is reduced by permanent telecommuting/hybrid schedules. By way of example I have a friend whose job is at am employer in Pennsylvania; he now lives in South Carolina. We’ve been hearing about that for decades.

There are two bigger competitive threats to Steamtown excursions. The first is the Reading and Northern’s new Pittson to Jim Thorpe service. Forty dollars, spectacular scenery (especially next month) and a destination in Jim Thorpe that has no rival on the Pocono Main. The second is the D-L. What happens if they get a PA-FA set running and tell the NPS, “your exclusive rights are for steam”?

6.) It’s worth a reminder that what we might consider a success is not necessarily an NPS objective. There is a non-insignificant contingent of people who believe the “enjoyment of the present generation” is inherently damaging and they are the thin green line that stands between marauding hordes and the responsible preservation of the stuff in their “care” (tell that to the now razed storage building or scrapped rolling stock). Whatever meager pittance they dole out requires your gratitude,

“The pay is the same whether you march of fight”.

It’s only slightly reduced and not interrupted if you screw up.

I'm sorry, I just think the death of a thousand cuts will ensure the fade to static.

Not concessions.

I was about halfway through Bruce Mowbray's informative post only to have it suddenly disappear. It sounds like the word is that work is supposedly to start up again on 3713 in the winter. At this point, is the goal still eventual operation, or reassembly strictly so it's no longer in pieces? Since so much has already been spent and done, I'm assuming operation, but making assumptions, especially with a government run entity, is never safe, when things can change virtually overnight.

John