This thread is a good example of problems with this Board. We have 46 postings that started out criticizing the decision of a preservation group. Most of those posting had no first hand knowledge about the problems facing that group yet they were critical of the decision. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Free advice is worth what you pay for it.

The last few postings did hit on a basic problem. The market for museum visitors has changed drastically in the last ten years. One museum that has attempted to survey visitors has found that today only about ten percent of visitors are rail enthusuasts. Most of the visitors today are family groups. A museum must appeal to family groups if it wants to attract the public. Today a museum that primarily attracts rail enthusiasts is bound to fail.

A thread about a year ago attempting to determine how musuems had changed their marketing for the 21st Century was an underwhelming success. I think it attracted maybe six posts. Yet that is where we should be putting our best thought and effort. Otherwise rail museums are going to die.

fk

Maybe one hint from England regarding marketing railway museums is in the use of the term "Museum" itself. From what I gather, in the UK the term (Railway) "Museum" is reserved for largely static exhibit-type facilities with a high percentage of indoor exhibit space. The term "Museum" is not used for the heritage railways which there, and here, offer an entirely different experience from a traditional musuem.

A few quick examples:

The great British tramway museum at Crich is no longer marketed as the National Tramway Museum, but as the Crich Tramway Village. It is a wonderful, outdoor, experience-- nothing like a stuffy, dark Museum where kids have to be quiet and are expected to read and remember all those signs. It is a great place for a family to spend a pleasant day, whether or not they care about tramways. They have nature trails, kids playgrounds, amusement park rides, etc. Want a bite to eat or a pint to drink, stop at the pub? Like to shop? There are plenty of small shops on the property.

Close to home, note that the Henry Ford Museum is now known as "The Henry Ford"

Even closer to home, one of the more successful U.S. operating not-for-profit Railway Museums, TVRM, no longer markets themselves primarily as a Museum, but as the Tennessee Valley Railway.

I don't know how attendance is holding up at traditional Museums in general, but I note that the two excellent Art Museums here in Baltimore have had to resort to free attendance to get anyone in the door. Are we sure we want to continue following that marketing and development model?

Meanwhile I understand attendance is skyrocketing at the National Parks around the country. Maybe this generation spends there indoor time at home on the computer, but needs some outdoor experiences as a balance

Maybe we should stop trying to identify with traditional Museums, or even exclusively with history, and wholeheartedly embrace the idea of being outdoor family experiences.

Test Case 1

Strasburg RR versus Railroad Museum of PA.

Compare attendance and understand the frustration of David Dunn wondering why more folks will not walk across the street to the Museum.

Test Case 2

California State Railroad Museum

What percentage of those who purchase admission to the museum also ride the Sacramento Southern (on the days they operate)?

JAC hits a good point with the nostalgia thing. I find that many elder folks in railroad museums still think that is why folks want to ride a train and are oblivious to the reason why Thomas, Polar Express, Little Engine that Could, Ghost Trains, and Dinner Trains are so successful. Well, maybe not dinner trains but you should get the point.

Can we educate and entertain at the same time?

Truer words could not have been spoken. This is so often forgotten and our biggest missed opportunity. No one can care about these machines unless they are COMPELLED to care by context and atmosphere!

Our groups have to go the extra mile to take people back in time to compel them to care and create new interest, instead of just firing up a choo choo in the backyard wearing carharts and sneakers!

And I want to clear this up:



99.9% of those posting supported the museum and its sale to further the museum's mission. There is not a single deragatory post concerning the VMT -- but you're right, it's taken a few posts to get down to more pertinent matters that concern all of us.

KL

Erik and the other posters have a good point in that there are many in the general public who do not even know what a steam locomotive is much less care if one ever runs again. Of course this has always been true. Prehaps the only real difference is the percentage of the population who feel this way. I remember riding a Southern trip behind 2839 out of Alexandria, VA and passing a guy who was walking down the ROW in the opposite direction we were going. With the hudson hammering along at something close to 80 mph this guy never looked up. I am not even sure he ever knew it was a passenger train rather than just another freight. My point is this guy probably would not have looked up if the year was 1852, 1902, or 1952.

While the percentage of the population who cares about live steam, static steam, or diesel may decline the overall population is rising. It seems the trick is to capture the portion of the population who does care. Even on the A&R we have people who run to see the train every time they hear the whistle. We had a lady who came by the shop in the last two weeks who told us anytime she came close to Aberdeen she had to bring her probably 2 year old son to see the trains. People are still interested and there will always be a lot of people who like things like trains, airplanes, motorcycles, or boats.

People riding trains often never see enough of the locomotives in action to know if they should be impressed or not. When all your exposure is to sit in the car and look outside and possibly see a little smoke go by it is not very impressive. At TVRM when you are waiting for the trian at Grand Junction the train enters or leaves the station turning on the wye and pulling up the steep grade to get there. At East Chattanooga every train is run around by putting the engine on the turntable and taking it for a spin. People actually see the engine doing something interesting. If you don't think they are interested see how many crowd to one side of the cars just to watch the engine run around the train on the passing siding.

I will offer a few examples of why I think steam is a draw that will bring people to places they would never go in great mass if the trains were always pulled by diesels. Two of those places are Cass, WV and Ely, NV. Who in their right mind would drive to these out of the way places just to ride a train? The reason people go is because the railroads offer something they can not get in other places. The steam locomotives in their natural surroundings are certainly one of the biggest reasons these members of the general public go to such remote locations. I really do not think nearly as many people would go if the train ride were behind diesels.

It is always possible to over saturate the market for anything and steam excursion trains are no exception. The trick is to offer enough variety of trips or to limit the number of trips so you can get new people each year. TVRM is running a large number of trains in a fairly small area but they keep filling the trains. TVRM is offering a wide variety of trips with both diesel and steam and marketing them well enough to keep the people comming through the door. Even in the remote region of Elkins, WV there are no less than 4 tourist operations hauling passengers. Apparently they are offering a good enough variety and are marketing the trains well enough to keep them running. The folks running the New River trains were filling 30 car trains every trip but limiting the trains to 4 times per year. It can be done.

Perhaps I am just not as negative in my opinions as others. I see young people who are very interested in trains. Surely not all of todays generations are only interested in what they can get comming out of a TV set or play station. I am sure there have just got to be a lot of people who are interested in being outdoors and seeing impressive machines at work. I think these kind of people are always going to be there and it is our job to find them and expose our operations to them. If we do we should be able to continue well into the forseeable future but to do so some of these steam locomotives are going to have to run.

I think we are also going to have to change the way museums are presented to the public. It is clear we must offer interactiive exibits. To me this is further proof that people would rather see something operating than just sitting. It is difficult to have any interactiion with a static 4-8-4 but let that 4-8-4 make a photo runby past the same person at 35 mph and I assure you the shaking ground under their feet will give them that interaction.

These ramblings are only my opinion. I have established my thoughts over a lifetime of being around the railroad and 30 years of working in whatever way I can in the preservation field. I think we have a bright future if we learn to adapt and evolve to meet the demands of the day. I have to believe this. I want to be able to go see steam run after I am no longer able to be a part of what is going on and securing a future for our interests is the only way I can do that.

No offense taken Erik. I understand your point of view.

John Bohon

I am finding this topic very interesting, especially considering the comments concerning the contrasts between "successful" and "unsuccessful" operations and/or museums. It will be interesting to see how the 3' gauge Kauai Plantation Railway succeeds! I have been in email conversation with Boone Morrison about that project, and it is basically a business proposition from the beginning. They are beginning with some coaches and two small diesels, and will not rebuild the two 0-6-2 steamers until operations reach a certain point. It is all part of a plantation experience, showing what Hawaiian plantations were once like.

Admittedly, they will have the advantage of carrying cruise ship passengers, but such passengers don't have to get off the ship, or go to things they are not interested in. The business partners are banking on the plantation experience and railroad attracting the "general public." I am waiting to see the results, and I am sure they are, too!! To visit the site, here is the link:

http://www.kauaiplantationrailway.com/

Next thing, you'll want me weighed against a duck!

"It is clear we must offer interactiive exibits. To me this is further proof that people would rather see something operating than just sitting."

Let me expound a bit on my response to yours earlier that started us down this path. I invited a business client to our annual open house two years ago. On that day, we offered steam, diesel and trolley rides, chances to power our "armstrong" turn table, handcar operation, and lots of other cool stuff. When I asked the non-railfan kids of my customer, "What did you like best?" Their immediate response was (tah dah!) "The bounce house.!" I felt better about their second choice which was the Lionel layout, but not much.

Secondly, how many of us here have families made up of non-railfans. I do. Every place we go had better have a loop arrangement or I hear about it on return trip. From 1880 Train in S.D., the Sacamento Southern in California to the Grand Canyon Railroad (actually they liked the hold up and singing cowboy on the way back.) Whatever is on the front end does not matter to them. They hate tolerating the same scenery twice! However, they do like the less time-consuming quick dash through the exhibits.

The interactive exhibit thing is a good question, and it doesn't apply to just railroads.

Recently I took my son to the Museum of Flight in Seattle. It's a world class museum, with a very impressive collection. The planes are immaculately restored, and the new (to me at least) warplane wing even has many of them in diorama style scenes. All in all, top notch stuff.

The problem is that just looking at old planes (or cars or trains, or...) is pretty boring. My son is in the Air Force, so he enjoyed the visit. My wife was only mildly interested, and I was somewhat interested but not really inspired.

We went on a weekday, and after a group of school kids on a tour left the place was empty. That would seem to indicate the public isn't inspired and that repeat visits are rare. Then again, maybe I caught them on an off day...

They try hard to make it more interesting. They have a movie theatre constantly showing films. They also have visiting exhibits.

What did my son like best? The full motion simulator. They strap you in and you fly a fighter plane using the Xplane video game. It's a full 360 degree simulator, and yes, you can go inverted. (I didn't realize that until during the ride, though when I saw the roller coaster style padded harness and they made me empty my pockets I had a clue something was up...)

Maybe we can learn something from other similiar museums? A locomotive simulator might add interactivity and generate some extra income as well.

Then again, I firmly believe the best kind of interactivity is a full fledged train ride.

I am basing my opinions on what I have observed at various venues over the years. I see people who do not appear to be railfans of any sort repeatedly showing up when our trains or those of NS or CSX appear in the yard in Fayetteville, NC on a regular basis. Of course many other people only resent being stopped at the crossing by the train. I still think the key to survival is making ourselves known to those who hold some interest and providing something to occupy those who are not particularly interested.

Depending on the age of your friend's children I probably would not be suprised by their choice of favorites. Most will probably like the thing they are most familure with. I suspect only those who actually like trains would tell you so. After one kid answered many kids will repeat the same answer just to be a part of the group.

I must admit I do not struggle with the family who is not interested in railroading, at least to some degree. My wife of 21 years was interested in trains before we met and before we were married told people that if it came to a choice between her and trains I would pick the trans every time. As my railroad career gets longer and longer it has become obvious she now enjoys all of railroading more than I. My 84 year old mother has hanging on the wall of her nursing home room a Western Maryland Railway Historical Society calender and looks forward to seeing the new picture each month. Even my sister and her daughters who have little interest in trains are interested enough to occupy themselves when with me around the railroad. I have never heard any of them complain and I spend a lot of time giving explanations due to their curiosity. Frankly I can not imagine being married to someone who hates the thing I like most. In that respect I consider myself very lucky.

John Bohon

Now there's an idea! A train simulator that takes you inverted!

Useful to entertain and engage guests, but useful possibly for actual "training..."

KL

Eric;

Too bad most people don't get to see that engine working at the GE dist. center in Perryville, MD. I get to hand off cars to the crew every so often from Q370. Nice work on the unit.

While I'm sure the crews enjoy them, I don't think modern cabs with closed, tinted windows help either the railroad or tourist industry when it comes to human relations.

When I take my lunch out on the Silver Spring MARC platform, I wave at the engines out of habit. Except for the local rock runner sporting beat up GP-40's or the getting rarer-by-the-week GP-30 slug, you'd never know there are humans running those trains. In this day of automation, within a few years, I'll wager most children won't realize it takes people and start to disconnect any interest in the industry.

If this is true, it may suggest the RR tourist industry starts to become perhaps the primary education location for the class 1 railroad industry.

Hello All
The following information titled "Virginia Museum of Transportation at a glance" was recently provided in the Roanoke Times news paper and provides basic details on the stated scope of the museum and Revenue Breakdown as of 2004-2005, the following is what was provided.

Founded: 1976

Mission: The museum is an educational institution that collects and preserves exhibits on the history and technology of transportation.

Executive Director: Bev Fitzpatrick (Current director as of 2006)

Total assets as of June 30, 2005: $6,184,957

Total liabilities as of June 30, 2005: $237,992

Museum revenues for fiscal 2004-05: $656,023

Revenue breakdown:
Public support: $176,174
Government support: $276,190
Program service revenue: $138,693
Membership dues: $14,326
Interest income: $3,253
Special event income: $36,962
Other: $10,425

Museum expenses for fiscal 2004-05: $626,466

Excess: $29,557

Annual visitation: $15,000 to $20,000

The News papers source for this information was: IRS form 990 VMT
This information was printed as a sidebar with two other articles on the museum and its efforts to over come "hard and difficult times" with the planed sale of the NKP 763. The other two articles printed with this sidebar were the following:
"Storm, insurance, cold - museum has 'tough year'"
"Locomotive scarred by rust, holes" (referring to the NKP 763)

I've provided this information as it was provided in the paper, and forwarded to this forum for your use to better understand the status of the Virginia Museum of Transportation located in the Roanoke Valley VA.