Isn't the NRM the same museum that deaccesioned equipment (or tried) like crazy in the past year? Also the same museum that has many pieces covered in pigeon crap? Wasn't there talk of them changing there focus to somewhat of a "banquet hall" versus a railroad museum? Shame on them for pulling what they are.

[quote="Randolph R. Ruiz"]We have established that NRM is trying to get more value out of this deal, and we also have pretty much established that NRM has received very little PR value from the previous agreement. How about a deal that allows for a couple of annual joint operations out of Green Bay? Perhaps then NRM would have a chance to more realistically evaluate the benefits and limitations of mainline steam operations?

By the way, don't the friends have the book keeping to show NRM their actual financial performance? Seems like that could put the matter to rest.[/quote]

Randolph,

261 operated local Green Bay trips for NRM on two separate occasions. The late, great Wisconsin Central was an agreeable host to steam (261, Soo 2719 and Soo 1003) but the CN merger removed that option. Of course, the other major railroad in Green Bay is the UP and their policy is "no foreign steam locomotives". E&LS also operates the former Milwaukee Road north of Green Bay but I doubt that their stance on fantrips is a positive one. Theft of items off of the Baldwin fleet years ago soured them and their position is well-known as it is posted on signs at their Wells, MI, roundhouse which read something to the effect: "Railfans not wanted or welcomed". Besides, I don't know if the railroad could physically handle the weight of 261.

NRM has the right to audit 261's books and they have done just that.

By contract, NRM's name is on the side of 261's coal bunker near the top and just behind the cab. The wording indicates that NRM is the owner of the locomotive. Every major article I have seen in any rail publications credits NRM with ownership of the locomotive.

The trips that 261 has operated in recent years out of Milwaukee have been well-received. This is about a close as the locomotive is going to get to Green Bay unfortunately.

For anyone who has visited NRM recently, did their gift shop contain any 261 items? Recently a visitor asked about 261 items when they visited and the museum person manning the shop replied, "What's that?"

I don't think public relations is NRM's issue surrounding 261. If it is, recent discussions on the internet have been a disaster for them. That said, let's hope that something can be arranged to keep 261 in steam.

Don C.

Let's face it. The right thing to do would be for NRM to give (or sell for a dollar) 261 to the Friends. That would be the step-up-to-the-plate correct thing to happen. Ah, but that runs afoul of the doctor's fiduciary interests. Wellsir, there exists a fiduciary concern only when the asset has the ability to earn money and as everyone has explained (and presumably confirmed by the Friend's books) the bottom line on steam is zero, nearly zero, or less than zero. So anything NRM can get they should be grateful for because it's more than other owning-parties get from their leases.

The only reason 261 has any value is because of the Friends and there is no reason Friends should pay NRM for value that they themselves are the creator of. If they won't budge then let them have 261 back and take the loss both financially and on their reputation. There are other engines that can shine under Friends' operation.

Steve

Is there firm reason to believe that CN would be hostile to a well-reasoned, well-proposed, well-presented trip, presumably operated under "Amtrak" auspices? As for UP, technically that may be UP territory now, but Green Bay is as far from the operational mindset of that railroad as, say, that Milwaukee spur in southern Indiana, or the PRR lines to Louisville or Cumberland, or Burlington Northern's line to Pensacola, Florida were from their respective railroads' mindsets. I would propose that NRM approach UP about sending 844 and train there. If the answer is "no" or middling wishy-washy non-committal responses, up the ante with the offer of a "home-town" train AND trainset--not just for NRM, but also for UP PR....... saves 'em that long ferry run to and from there, after all...........



The track issues on the E&LS are indeed serious ones. I last saw the line in 2004, and seeing the trains rock and roll down the tracks gave me flashbacks of growing up in Penn Central branchline territory. There is no way I'd feel comfortable seeing 261 on that trackage.

On the other hand, don't discount the E&LS completely. I could sarcastically note that, if we're going to apply the same stereotypes as the ownership of the E&LS apparently has buried in their skulls, that the same low-down, freeloading, thieving "railfans" that caused them so much troubles during their "Baldwin/Shark" days don't buy tickets to excursions, anyway, and since the railroad is already staked out as "no trespassing," well, you don't have to worry about them while the excursion is running, no? <:-)



My point exactly, for better or worse.

In the words of the late Graham Chapman, "there is only one thing worse than being talked about...and that, is not being talked about."

Stephen

I am seeing the annual solicitations to buy non-261 holiday cards from the National Railway Museum of Green Bay arrive at my railroad seemingly addressed to everyone listed in the Pocket List of Railway Officials or on the subscription lists of the railroad trade magazines. Therefore, I suspect that the museum is more about money than any increased attendance good publicity from a tie in with 261's trips could bring.
I've met that same mind set at other museums, "Don't donate a television, billboard, or other expensive ad to get more visitors, just donate the money and let us decide how to spend it".

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION, nothing more:

I have read and re-read the letter Dr. Paul Koch sent to Jim Wrinn which began this thread. Having done so, if I were in any position of authority or management in the Friends of the 261, I would run, not walk to the nearest available exit. Button the locomotive up, clean it up, make it prettier than when you got it and ship it back to Green Bay and the NRM. These are people that (in my opinion) you DO NOT want to do business with.

Several things, I think, need to be pointed out to the National Railroad Museum:

First, and foremost: THEY DON"T NEED YOUR LOCOMOTIVE. Their success has exactly nothing to do with the fact they are operating a Milwaukee Road S-3. It has everything to do with dedication, with great volunteers, with endless, miserably hard work, and with the careful building and nurturing of relationships with the railroads. The enormous pool of skills, the reservoirs of good will, and the knowledge necessary to maintain and operate a big locomotive successfully are NOT attached to your locomotive. Other locomotives comparable in size, power and restorability are readily available should the Sandbergs and the Friends choose to persue (one or more)

Secondly, you did not lease them an operable locomotive, an invaluable asset or even a complete locomotive. The reason that 261 marched out of Minneapolis in the fall of 1993 to pull its first excursions was the application of more than $800,000 of other peoples money and more than 20,000 hours of volunteer labor. You leased them a locomotive that had been sitting outdoors for over 30 years, which was missing parts and appliances of various sorts, and whose existing appliances required extensive overhauling (or complete replacement as in the dynamo) to be functional, and a tender devoid of bearings on its axles.

Thirdly, your asset which has produced at least $150,000 in lease payments for your museum required absolutely nothing of you. You took no risks, you contributed no labor, no parts, no support that I'm aware of. (I could be wrong I wasn't much involved).

So now you want to maximize the revenues that your "asset" produces, and you want to do so in such a way that somebody else takes ALL the risk. I'm told you've audited their books, so, in my mind, there's no question that you know that the operation of 261 itself has been a break even operation, and that what profits the folks have produced have largely come from their passenger rolling stock.

The way your letter is worded, it sounds like a thinly veiled threat "If you don't accept our terms we'll blame you for the locomotive's demise". I hope they don't accept your terms. I hope they return the locomotive to you in better shape than it was the day they leased it and walk away from your museum.

I believe that your museum doesn't have the rolling stock, the expertise, or the volunteers to replicate what the Friends have done. I hope you have a nice place to put the 261 on display.

Requiescat in Pacem 261.

Well said, Doug.
I have dealt with this mind set before, and nothing positive has ever come from it. I know of at least two formerly operating locomotives where this attitude has been a contributing factor (although by all means not the only, or even the critical one) to their now being static displays.

Yes, let us not forget the tender roller bearings (off a UP ex-FEF turned Big Blow tender). The Friends should by all means remove them before the engine is returned. That may be a bit tricky if NRM doesn't allow it after it's on their property. What was the tender riding on for the short pull out of the museum when it was initially removed?

Steve

I suspect that Steaminfo's post reflects the overwhelming majority opinion of the participants on this board. IMHO he certainly says it well and hits all the salient points.

As previously posted I was forced into a very similar situation years ago by the original Steamtown BOD and it seems to me that there's probably little chance of "educating" the NRM BOD regarding the real facts of life and thus this will most likely end with the 261 being returned to Green Bay and joining the ranks of the overly populated "stuffed&mounted" specie. So be it.

As Steaminfo and others have stated the real asset here is the outstanding professionalism that Steve Sandberg&Co. have shown and the strong institutional credibility that has earned them. That coupled with the first rate fleet of Amtrak accepted cars makes it feasible for them to adopt any steam horse they want and make it work for them.

As I have written in my letter to the NRM BOD, if I were Steve Sandberg the only way I would continue with the 261 is if the NRM agrees to pay a minimum of a $25,000/year marketing fee and at least $ 250,000 towards her FRA work-up in return for the excellent exposure they get from a living history ambassador!

Short of that, the sooner she goes back the better!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

OPEN LETTER

Dr. Paul Koch,President
NRM B.O.D.
2285 S. Broadway
Green Bay,Wi. 54304-4832
November 3, 2009

Dear Dr. Koch,
I write as a long time supporter of your first rate museum and wish to convey my thanks to you and everyone on your team for the fine job you do in helping tell the important story of railroadings critical role in the growth of our nation. My several visits to your facility have impressed me with the attention to detail and professionalism you have achieved throughout your facility.

I also write to share with you my strong feelings regarding the very publically discussed issue of your relationship with the Sandberg family and locomotive 261. Please understand that my advice is based on many many years of hands on experience operating a number of different mainline steam locomotives throughout the USA.

I have riden on a good number of the 261 excursions operated by Steve and his able crew and have always been very impressed with their attention to detail, safety and the comfort of the paying guests. All of their operations have been a credit to all involved and have made countless new friends for railroading in general and steam in particular. I have heard many, many folks exclaim while standing near the 261, " I didn't know there was a railroad museum in Green Bay", when they read the plaque on her tender. Hard to say how many new friends they've made over the years for the NRM...but its got to be LOTS!!!

From my many years in the business I can assure you that without the SUBSTANTIAL financial subsidies provided by the Sandberg family the 261 program would not have been possible, and any future that mainline steam may have will be equally dependant upon this kind of support. The Sandbergs now must decide ...do they want to invest somewhere between $ 500,000 and $ 750,000 to bring the 261 into compliance with the new FRA reg's or return her to your safe keeping.

For the long term good of the NRM I certainly hope that they decide to carry on and keep her in active service as she's a far more valuable asset for your institution out "there" making new supporters vs. sitting in Green Bay amongst an already full house of static giants!!

To encourage the Sandbergs to stay the course and go forward with the major undertaking of bringing the 261 into compliance with the FRA regs may I make the following suggestion. I would suggest that the NRM offer to contribute $ 250,000 cash towards the costs of the FRA work and agree to a new 15 year lease of the engine wherein the NRM will agree to pay $25,000/year towards her care and feeding in return for the immense PR and Marketing benefits that accrue to the NRM. I think with this offer there might be a good chance that the Sandbergs would agree to go forward!!

At the end of the day it is of course a decision that can only be made by you and your Board and I'm confident that you will weigh it carefully. I will certainly respect whatever you decide as I know the decision will be made based on the Boards fiduciary duty to the long term good of the NRM.

America today has an overabundance of preserved static giants and a deficit of living examples of our proud railroading heritage. My profound hope is that the NRM will help keep the mainline steam flame burning brightly in America's heartland!!

Respectfully submitted, Ross E. Rowland, Jr.

I particularly liked Ross's suggestion that the museum pay the Friends instead of the other way around.

Certainly everyone on this post has an opinion on the 261, the museum and the Sanbergs. Seems like all you hear is people praising the Sanbergs for running this great engine. But has anyone ever stopped to think about how smart of an idea it is to spend thousands of dollars and man hours on something you don't even own and ultimately have no control over?

Up until now it has worked pretty well.

The "iconic" nature of 261 is a direct result of its having been in mainline service, and it will be soon lost if removed.

No ill wishes to NRM or the Sandberg organization - I have never worked for either or even visited NRM or ridden behind 261 and have no dog in the fight other than to hope a very successful and highly regarded mainline operator finds another good source of power that will keep the vision alive for another couple decades.

dave

Well, that's kinda the point of the thread there Mincy. They have a lease agreement that expires in 2011, and it was shortly after the teardown in 2008 for the FRA required 1472 day inspection that the lease terms for the future came into play, and work was stopped until an agreement between the Sandbergs and the museum could be negotiated (or not), a fairly intelligent move on Steve's part, I think.They felt the expenditure of time and money for the duration of the exsisting lease wasn't justified if they couldn't come to workable partnership with the museum. What, in my opinion, makes this a "great" engine is the people who pulled it's lifeless hulk out of a static display and made it what it has been,part of a truly great operation.
Why take a shot at them?

Cheers, Dave