I thought you caught flies, rather than bees, using honey, not vinegar. Now that that important issue has been clarified, Ross Rowland has more experience working with Chessie System/CSX and running steam than probably anyone else on the board. Listen to what he says. A unified, conciliatory approach to CSX management may sway the picture in the future. I doubt these large companies will remain stiff-armed to steam indefinitely. Management styles change as personnel roll-over.
I always find it strange that railroads that designed and ran these steam locomotives hundreds of times, hundreds of miles, day in, day out, are reluctant to run them in the modern world. Granted, hot-shot trackage should be reserved for revenue freight, but some of the company reservations are sadly, almost comical.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know....lawyers, insurance....

Lacking any explanation for turning down the move, CSX may simply feel that steam conflicts with their brand image.

Two thoughts:

1. Regarding Termite7's post on the second page: I think that's the bottom line - CSX is simply impossible to deal with any more to move any sort of equipment that the readers of this site are interested in. And anyone who would rely on CSX to actually move something such as a steam engine, especially where there was a time limit due to a planned event, is really taking a huge gamble. Every day it is something new: non-rotating end-cap bearings, placement of the equipment in the train, etc. etc. If I was organizing the event I would be worried that ANY of the WMSR equipment would arrive in time for the events. CSX - especially the northern part of the system - simply has too many yards, too many terminals, and a situation where everyone and no one is in charge to make a decision.

2. Regarding Ross' posts: railroads still have a tariff, and still are common carriers. The last I looked there were still steam engines in the CSX tariff. I question if CSX is upholding its responsibilities by flatly refusing to haul items such as passenger cars that are in their tariff and don't impose any special restrictions on operations. If someone wanted to move something such as a 2,000,000 pound load that would obviously not fit within operating parameters I can agree CSX can refuse the load. Otherwise I am not happy with them refusing to haul items that don't impose special operating requirements on them. And the fact that CSX takes large amounts of taxpayer dollars puts them on even shakier ground in the eyes of many, especially in states such as West Virginia.

Until 10 years or so ago it wasn't that way - if you wanted a passenger car moved CSX would just pick it up, stick it in the middle of the next train, and it was on its way.

Chris.

I don't believe that most of us are disputing CSX's right to make decisions about what their company will or will not allow on their property. Rather, I believe that the question is whether there was good faith in the dealings between CSX Transportation and the organizers of the various events that were scheduled in WV next week.

I am personally convinced that the operators of these events would not have put their collective reputations on the line without being convinced that CSX had committed to allow the locomotive move. If the railroad has elected to change policy since the original discussions were held, that's fine....they should still honor any outstanding commitments, or whatever damage may come to their reputation may be well-deserved. If they continue down the current road, the only face-saving strategies that might be available to them would be to either: A) Detail some clear and present danger associated with this particular move that was not apparent when the original "commitment" was made, or B) Admit that they have some command and control issues because said commitments were made by individuals without proper authority.

One wonders what would become of this situation if the press were to become involved. Sometimes, hard-and-fast rules tend to soften when the debate moves from industry-related websites such as this one, to the court of public opinion.

As for the incident which occurred with a recent vintage equipment move on CSX, one possible viewpoint is that whatever railroad personnel were responsible for the safety of this operation failed to perform the necessary due diligence for such a move or they would have recognized the limitations of that equipment before there was a problem.

It may happen before all is said and done. We're all focusing on the railroad side of things here. The bigger issue is the financial stability of the festival itself, which is now likely affected by the loss of the major attraction. Maybe the excursions won't be affected, but the number of people through the gate will be. The expected attendance may be suffering greatly at the moment which goes far beyond the railroad world and into the tourism industry with people possibly canceling their attendance because of this. You are now affecting motel rooms, food, and generally a lot of businesses in the Petersburg/Romney area, and likely expanding to cities farther away because of limited lodging capacity near the festival site. This could be a big blow to the local West Virginia tourism industry for that week.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and things will reverse themselves, but this has the makings of a local PR mess for CSX if the news media gets ahold of this and runs with it.
Kevin

That presumes CSX even remotely cares about its local image. My experience with them is that they don't, and that the local management at the Superintendent level is someone from out of town only a few weeks into their assignment, or is moving on in a few weeks, and has no ties to or interest in the local community.

Chris.

Until the ripped the draft gear out of a few of them, and realized "maybe this isn't a good idea".

I honestly don't think they're intentionally peeing in anyone's cheerios here, but would YOU stake your livelihood (ie, your job) on someone else's special movement like this?

No one is asking or suggesting anyone stake their livelihoods on anything. The simple facts that bear repeating are:

1. CSX approved 734 move months ago
2. CSX disapproved move at last minute
3. CSX will still tow diesel but not steam across their line.

One of the main issues we're going to be dealing with down the road is the simple age of our beloved equipment. It is starting to scare managers at more and more of the railroads we try to deal with for moves. The equipment that was 30-40 years old in the 60's and 70's is now nearly a century old.

Imagine some manager located 10 states away has a jumbo mortgage, needs to pay for braces for his daughter, and wants to take the kids to Wally World this summer. He finds out someone wants to move a nearly century old locomotive over his territory and he simply says no. Why stick his neck out? His pay is the same either way and if the move goes bad he is in hot water.

If you're dont like it, start a new mutual fund called " Foamers Fund,LLC" raise $200 million or thereabouts, use it to buy enough CSX common stock so your candidates control the CSX Board of Directors, have them elect a capable foamer CEO and then when you call to set-up your next mainline steam extravaganza they'll say, " YES SIR, well have everything lined up for you EXACTLY as requested, and EVERYONE at CSX looks foward to helping you make it a RESOUNDING success. Please let us know if there's anything else we can do!!".

CSX has a market cap of 21B, so I'm not sure 200 million will do much. Besides, they just fended off a bigger insurrection in the form of "The Children's Investment Fund"

can 734 move on its own, steamlocomotive.com shows it operational.

In any event, if you can't get the engine there by whatever logistics, invite the crowds to go 10 miles and visit it at its home site and expand the party there.

Might be better to launch the "Foamers Insurance Fund", 200 million dollar insurance coverage available to qualified steam operators. Yeah, it would cost a few million to get the fund off the ground (derivatives and CDO's anybody) but at least operators could walk in the door gunning for bear.

'Course the manager with no stake in the game still has no reason to say yes. Might be a problem with modern business in general and that forebodes more trouble ahead. It's not like a CSX rep can't go see the engine right now and see if it can get over it's own road right now. Still, easy to say no.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Just my two cents......
from previous experience dealing with CSX and other class 1's,
Its not the age of the equipment or a lack of "alignment" couplers, those are excuses for the real problem. The real problem is poor train handling. for example: it is common practice these days to use dynamic brakes excessively-Supposedly, non alignment locos tend to move side to side, sort of twisting when you ride the dynamic heavily, this is probably what caused the derailment with those switchers.
A tourist operation I was involved with several years back had a budd built passenger car damaged by CSX, one draw bar was ripped out- again, a train handling issue. Common practice when picking up any car is to put it on the head end, simply because it is easier than having to shove back or have the conductor walk back from the bottom. thus, a passenger car on the head of a heavy freight= broken car.
Additionally, Most if not all class 1's are only interested in shipping intermodal containers/trailers or unit trains.
Currently, CSX and other class 1's are going thru a "changing or the guard", many older people are retiring and the new guys have little to no experience- with anything, much less old equipment. Thus, they are more unwilling to ship anything "different". Better to make excuses and not deal with the actual problem, call it a "safety" issue.......
Political pressure may do some good here, maybe......
Ok, I'm done bashing for now.....

The WM 734 is actually an ex LS&I locomotive that has been decked out as a WM machine. She has operated very successfully on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad from Cumberland to Frostburg for many years. She's a well-maintained engine supported by a very capable shop.

The site of the WV event is actually more like 30 miles from the 734's home base in Cumberland. I believe that the 10 mile number that is being quoted relates more to the distance she must travel over CSX track to reach the tracks of the railroad that is hosting the event. A lot of folks were very much looking forward to seeing the 734 on the Potomac Eagle, which has some really beautiful scenery.

I think two things are at play regarding CSX.

First of all I was told that somebody (no idea who) interchanged a car to CSX with oil bearings that had been filled with the wrong lubricant (automatic transmission fluid by all accounts) and this tied up a real railroad for a long time...costing CSX a lot of time and therefore money.

Secondly the big railroads are running out of people who know a janney coupler from a tight-lock. The young guys are clueless about old equipment so they just look at the car/locomotive and say "nope...not on my watch". And so it goes.

I like the grandiose attitude of people who advise "oh you can handle these people if you know what you are doing". But in reality they will just not pick up the phone whenever an unfamiliar number pops up on the caller ID. If you leave messages on their answering machines they just get ignored. I am aware of a handful of people in real jams and CSX is not the slightest bit helpful. Nothing we can do about it I am afraid.


Cranes and TTX flat cars anybody?

T7