I wont speak for anybody else, but I'm not dancing. I am just asking what it would cost to restore the locomotive to operation if done in the most efficient and competent manner. Apparently, it is the world's most difficult question to answer.

Yes, because the answer depends on the parameters.

Compare it to finding a 1969 Chevy El Camino in a barn, one that had been through a botched restoration at one point after someone tried to soup it up for drag racing and screwed up or banged it up.

Do you:
*get it running just barely enough to run about as a farm truck? (sweat, tires)
*get it just roadworthy enough to pass inspection and get a regular license and insurance, with replacement parts from the auto parts store down the street? (couple hundred bucks...)
*get it in good enough shape to qualify for an "antique" registration and insurance? (couple hundred more bucks.....)
*fix it up enough to be a "daily driver" auto, possibly with a replacement rebuilt engine? (couple grand or more, but cheaper then buying a new truck....)
*make it a "museum piece" with original replacement parts, ready for car shows? (ten or twenty grand, and/or a lot of DIY work...)
*fix it up enough to win the drag-racing trophies at the Chevy car shows? (Investing money in hopes of winning more money?)

But I have given the parameters more than once already. How much would it cost to restore it for operation, that is, mainline operation the way it operated when it was in service? Wasn't that the intention of the failed restoration effort?

Certainly this cannot be something that has not been looked into. It must have been part of the equation to abort the last restoration effort.

This might be a consideration if there was just one pot of money set aside for that purpose, and all possible projects were forced to draw from just that one pot. There are more potential sources, however:

Donald Trump might want to personally fund the restoration to AMTRAK standards to haul his whistlestop campaign tour when he runs for president in 2012, for example, or Conrail Historical Society might do really well with their calendar sales.

Point being, any entity with funding and authority to make whatever happen with it can, regardless of other projects going on elsewhere. it isn't either / or.

Ron, there isn't a simple answer to your question, which isn't frightening but understandably is frustrating. Too many variables to be considered, but maybe Trump will get Scott in to provide a binding estimate, and share it with us all. It would be a different answer if the state of Pennsylvania were to ask for bids, or if the Friends of the Museum asked the question.

dave

Well gee, there would not be so many variables if you guys didn’t keep adding them to my question. If I understand correctly, the restoration was running over budget, and then ran into a new technical problem that had not been anticipated, and solving that problem would add considerably more cost. So that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Was the project simply ended because there would be added cost without anybody calculating what that cost would be?

From what I heard, the work needed to overcome the unforeseen problem with the boiler sheet above the firebox was clearly understood. If you add the cost of that work to the cost of the rest of the uncompleted work, what would the amount be?

COST TO FINISH THE WORK: $________________.00

Ron,

You can forecast and estimate the costs to do these repairs, but none of the pros will give you a fixed lump sum price for the entire project. It seems in this market, these guys get paid by the day or the week, knowing there is so much money to spend. The one big variable is the cost of steel and we all know how that continues to fluctuate. Right now the price of scrap is tending downward but we're not really seeing new rail coming down in price yet.

While these contract restoration guys are all standup guys for the most part, they largely do not know what they will find when they open up and engine and start a restoration so they have learned to not get pinned in a corner without a way out. It's really pretty smart on their part. With the K-4, it would seem that most of the once hidden issues should now be pretty much out in the open, such as the sub-standard crown sheet, but has anyone done a detailed estimate of labor hours and materials to put a decent ballpark estimate on it? It shouldn't be that hard to do, but until RRMM decides they're going to do this, there's not much sense in even working up an engineer's estimate.

Strasburg has produced one for the Long Island G5s. It has not been installed aas of the last time I was down there.

I think before any more $$ is spent on this locomotive, it needs to go to a competent faciality, such as Strasburgh, and let those people do what they do best, without any interference from anyone.the work they've done on the LIRR engine proves it CAN be done, and done by them.

Nobody knows what it would cost because there are too many variables, and too much potential for other unknown problems to crop up during the process. I'm sure there are estimates out there based on what is known and in "hopes that we don't find anything else wrong."

I doubt you will be able to get any reputable restorer to committ himself to a firm figure, especially so in this case, as this locomotive has chewed up and spit out a number of cost estimates (and restorers) already.

As to my earlier statement about limited funding, this goes back to the old "we don't get no respect" argument. There is a large amount of money available for "do-good, feel-good" projects. The reality is that not much of this makes it's way to railroad museum and locomotive projects. Ask any of the organizations out there trying to raise funds for their rail preservation projects. Regardless of their track record, fund raising is usually the hardest part of a project. I'm not aware of any project that is suffering from a surplus of funding.

That's why I said this particular locomotive is snakebit in this regard. It has passed numerous deadlines, consumed a staggering amount of grants and donations, and is still not much closer to operating than it was when they started on it, in terms of dollars and cents. Firebox work is extremely expensive, especially when sheet and staybolt replacements are as substantial as this K4 needs. Of course it CAN be done given more huge amounts of money than it's already consumed.

This in no way solves the other problems: Where do you get cars to pull and track to run on, not to mention experienced crews for the road and the shop.

Face it gang: Those who really believe that Donald Trump or Bill Gates or NS is chomping at the bit to bankroll this project is whistling in the dark, IMO. The project has gone on so long that the entire landscape has changed, and not so much for the better.

And I am not expecting to convince anyone.

Has anyone seen an accounting of how much money has been spent so far on the 1361?

Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating that the engine be restored to operation. I would prefer that it be cosmetically restored and displayed indoors in the most fitting kind of setting.

I guess what I am concluding is that the locomotive has turned into a sort of hoodoo engine because of all of the accumulated grief of the failed restoration attempt. It is almost as if it has become jinxed so that no further plans for it can be contemplated.

overbudget, underbudget, NO BUDGET! Quit planning it. Restoring an engine like this has no budget. You make your estimates and go, one step at a time, I see no failed project here, it is still ongoing, and you just keep plugging. Someone needs to open a donations line tax deductable for the engine's restoration.

If the project is being funded by other means more power to it, but I would rather see it open up. Jabbering here doesnt make the engine go any further,, welding and work on the engine does, projects like this its obvious without volunteer help it gets very expensive. You need people willing to volunteer who are qualified to work on boilers to help out and yet you do need professional help on the engine as well, same was done on 765, it was a mix of all skills and powers to be to restore 765, it need not be any different for the K4. I am glad to see the current moves of the engine, it shows the project is still... -ON-.

cheers.

I am an outsider watching this train wreck from afar, but my thoughts on this locomotive and its restoration are:

The locomotive was pulled off Horse Shoe Curve in the 1980’s and quickly restored to operation under a different set of regulatory rules. That restoration was quick and dirty… but the beast ran… it steamed… it was alive…

After some operational issues, and with the expiration of its boiler tag, a new restoration started… well funded with various state/federal grants, supplemented with donated funds. To meet the new regulatory rules… Lots of funding was available, but less control was exercised than might have been hoped for… Politics were involved… in some ways they drove the work…

This restoration was supposed to be the full on fix everything. That probably lead to some degree of over restoring, and re working acceptable work. “We can do it better…” Of course, we have all the money we need… (TV narratives about the 10 million dollar man do not make a restoration plan)

The work plan, was use the facilities at Steam Town… paid by the Altoona group… The Steamtown facilities were as good as they get… Steam Town would get activitiy in their roundhouse and shops… something for visitors to see…

It appears that Altoona thought they were getting more oversight than Steamtown was prepared or able to provide… so for much of the project there was little or no adult supervision… but lots of money… a bad combination… not fraud, but mismanagement by lack of management. It is hard to assign blame, but there is much blame to spread around, and many many to spread it….

Mean while, the sponsoring / owning museum had a financial crisis… A near bankruptcy… and new management took over, and tried to run both the museum, and its remote locomotive restoration… by now the consumption of funds due to under management was a public issue… Changing Federal and local grant policy made additional funding more difficult… At that moment, the key, boiler design issue emerged… the boiler, as built, did not comply with current (and likely past) Federal rules… the roof sheet was too thin from the time of manufacture… This was discovered when the new form 4 calculations were done… Arguably the testing and calculations should have been done earlier in the restoration, and hopefully if done, could have been addressed then, before the restoration reached the crisis stage. The discovery at that point was difficult to address in a calm, rational way.

The sponsoring / owing museum went through another crisis / re¬organization…

Since, Strasburg has identified a boiler repair, while working on a similar boiler for one of the Long Island 4-6-0’s. A good repair, in compliance with current rules… Not cheap, but a realistic repair so reasonable estimates of required boiler work could be worked up. It is likely that most of the heavy work on the running gear has been done… but it needs to be reassembled… not just bolted together, but assembled and tamed with operation in mind, with repairs done as found… Again, if there was a realistic hope a reasonably accurate estimate could be developed…

All in an environment of no money… owned by a museum trying to remake itself for the second time… and a world where mainline steam excursions are not welcome… so where will the return on investment come from…


I want to see it run…. Wouldn’t it be neat to see it run… are not business models (Not for Profit is not a business model… it is a tax status…) Railfans dream… but rarly pay for the dreams…

This discussion is in a way, the definition of the debate about the direction of the site… We need to talk about it… but too much of the discussion is “I hope to photograph it” or “I want to ride behind it” or wouldn’t it be nice by folks who won’t ever pick up a wrench… Instead of discussing when to do a form 4, we are talking about lost dreams… by people unable to differentiate between work and dreams...

Now thats been done already!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer

Jeff

Probably if you took the money that has been spent on the boiler work up until now, you may have been able to have the German works build a new boiler like they did for the Tornado.
That's no more off the wall than any thread on the 1361 has gotten so far.
Never say never, but sometimes you just have to let it go.