Well, let me reiterate/modify it: "One thing I find about the rail preservation and rail enthusiast field is that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance and closed mindedness floating around."

Did you ever run into those folks that think if it's not Alcos/steam/the [fill in the railroad], it's cr*p? How is such provincialism supposed to be any better than those geeks or nerds arguing over which version of Star Trek, Batman, or Star Wars was best? Or those pirated stickers on the back of a Ford or Chevy showing a well-known comic strip character piddling on the logo of the other manufacturer?

Seriously, aren't we supposed to be above this balderdash? Or if not, at least act like we are?

One group I'm involved with occasionally appropriates donations to other history organizations in the region--they have the money, thanks to some luck and good fortune in the excursion days. At one point, someone proposed a particular association for a donation, and the treasurer outright rejected the idea--"We gave them a donation for their [specific preservation proposal] back in [years ago]; they failed at preserving it, and they didn't give back our donation!" As valid a point as that may be, they're still doing some good, and that was well over a decade ago, and new folks are in charge (I think) of the association in question.

So the NRHS is in a new day now with a new management....

What is the "value added" that the NRHS is going to bring to a currently successful tourist shortline or museum that is not already available from others?

PC

I haven't been part of the discussions involving ARM and Train, but part of the answer has to be the same one NRHS was formed and has chapters: economy of scale.

For example:

NRHS currently has an group type insurance program that provides some pretty nice discounts for things like liability (as opposed to health or car) insurance

Also, NRHS offers its members discounts at rail museums and tourist railroads and depending how often someone uses these discounts, the amount saved could easily exceed the dues paid to NRHS.

Bob H

It's not just the NRHS, at one time I belonged to about 10 railroad related historical Type organizations.

And I have since dropped several including the NRHS.

I would get the renewal notice and think did I get my moneys worth?

Did the newsletter come on time (did it come at all)?

Did I make any research questions and did I get a polite or any response?

Did I go to any of their events and did I enjoy myself.

Is their webpage of any use.

I have been and am involved with several organizations, in the past I have done newsletter production for 4 organizations and currently am heavily into archives and computer support for 2 RR groups.

And I am scanning a 30,000 +- slide collection for the local NRHS chapter.

-Hudson

I do not really want to get involved in NRHS bashing so I will try to be objective. I do believe that the NRHS is working hard to become a 21st century organization, unfortunately Y2K was 12 years ago.

The biggest issue that I have been involved in has had to do with the nationals relation and control over "local" groups, espacially ones that have evolved to far more that a group of people who get together once a month to look at slides. The extra 35 plus dollars for dues was a big recruiting issue.

I believe that other national affinity organizations, such as Historic Construction, and Anitque Truck, struggle with the same issues.

Maybe the chapter system needs to go?

I stated earlier that the NRHS is far more a loose coalition of 100+ individual groups than it is a national organization.

Eliminate the Chapters, and you have a multitude of individual museums, preservation projects, "friends-of-the-museum" support groups, and the like that have to formulate a plan to either form their own independent club or dissolve the projects with which they've already invested. A slide-showing club can just convert to an e-mail list or website, and/or toss the slides. Not so for a chapter owning a station or train or locomotive.

Face the reality: We're provincial. Chapters reflect that. A national NRHS doesn't.

Honestly, I don't think this debate would be going on if the national organization could quickly and easily articulate a major success or two in the past 5 years.

Having a quick talking point on that is key to selling any organization.

If someone asked me what The CRHS has done, I can quickly spout off the things:

1. We've saved a number of pieces of equipment and are in the process of restoring them: A caboose, a gondola, a flat car, and a camp car, which we believe is a unique piece among preserved equipment.

2. We're currently archiving all of the non-equipment items in our collection with the intention of making as much of them as possible available online to our members.

3. We've got a 25,000 page website, mostly made of up historical Conrail photos. This provides a free research tool to members and the world at large.


What's the National NRHS's equivalent?

As I can continually emphasize, this is much more on a chapter-by-chapter basis. And I know that this was not intended to be a competition of comparison, but here's a reflex response:

One chapter to which I belong: two locomotives and eleven pieces of rolling stock, 1.6 miles of track (about to be put back into use as part of access to an industrial park), a century-old station restored from a collapsing-roof situation....

Another chapter: directly responsible for the preservation of at least five pieces of now-quite-notable rolling stock and involved with the creation of two entire museums, operation of over 100 excursions over the decades, accumulating a library with over 5,000 books and 25,000 periodicals and probably around 100,000 photos. (And we just got in a drop from one engineer's office and are picking up another estate tomorrow...)

Another chapter: Preservation and opening to the public of an interlocking tower, and preservation of a GG1 and PRR caboose.

Go down chapter by chapter, and you'll come up with a list that ranges from the pathetic to the spectacular. Which does return us to the original question: What does the National alliance/association bring to the table? What benefit is there, if any, and what is planned for the future?

Oh yeah, definitely, the Chapters have done (and are doing) really good things, but the question is, what has the National org done.

Can it say "we directed a $100k grant to so and so chapter so they could do X", "we represented small museums before the FRA to make their operations exempt", "we've assumed the assets of defunct chapters and redirected them to ongoing ones", "we've settled a dispute between two local chapters over something" or "we've maintained and disseminated a best practices repository for our local chapters"?

If all it can say is that "We've put out a magazine and are working on a plan to improve", then they're going to have to steel themselves to the fact that until they're again demonstrating real value, their dues are going to drop off.

That's the price you pay for putting yourself in a place where you have to reinvent yourself.

I'm sure the National NRHS Organization is full of fine folks who really believe in what they're doing, and who put in real, hard work on it. But so was Kodak...

To add to Sandy's "reflex" response of what the National offers:

a) A comprehensive insurance option for chapter rail operations
b) A national grants program
c) Nationwide discounts to dozens of railroad-related sites
d) A quarterly color magazine AND a monthly color newsletter.
e) Another newsletter for chapter leaders and housekeeping matters
f) Alco Historic Photos project (30k negatives, 10k drawings)
g) An annual Railcamp
h) An annual convention

That's pretty dang good in my estimation. Throw in what some individual chapters are accomplishing and I would say the NRHS more than holds its own against other "national" organizations.

Matt Bumgarner
Alexander Chapter-NRHS

Stretching arms forward, cracking knuckles - 54 responses, lots to digest, thanks for your interests and thoughts!

In summary:

Most seem to believe and support the value of maintaining local chapter membership while only a few represented in this group found favor in supporting the national society, based on their own experience over the last decade or so.

Several new policies are in the works at the national society in a continuing attempt to remain viable and encourage membership.

What was listed as negative and positives (in no specific order):
* On both lists

Negatives discussed in thread:
1) Exclusive trips /events for directors
2) Excessive time discussing frivolous topics at meetings
3) Fee's pricing out relations with local chapter memerbership.
4) Lack of support to the local chapters from the national society.
5) Disassociation with modern times.
6) Mediocre /value of the magazines /flyers and yearbook. *
7) Lack of presence outside it's own structure.
8) Loss of ID to local chapter. *
9) Benefits not often seen locally.
10) Rail Camp - high cost, low benefit and "insider's club". *
11) Chapters do not get priority with grants.
12) Excessive regulations.
13) Excessive staff - since corrected?*
14) Old man's club.
15) Few if any trips outside of conventions.
16) No central contact /libary.
17) Poor Internet presence.
18) No understanding or trust in how dues are being spent.

Positives discussed in thread:
a) A comprehensive insurance option for chapter rail operations.
b) A national grants program
c) Nationwide discounts to dozens of railroad-related sites.
d) A quarterly color magazine AND a monthly color newsletter. *
g) An annual Railcamp *
h) An annual convention.
7) Being part of a bigger group with a national footing. *
8) A national library. *
9) New photo archive project including Alco project.
10) Contact for assistance with photographer's rights w/ACLU support.


What I would like to see most, and what would make membership and support viable to me would be the following:

1) I'd like to see the budget broken down in it's entirety and made available to it's members once a year. Where's the money being spent? (Does that exist, I can not recall). I expect the same break down in regards to my condo fees and the similar when it comes to some of the charities I support which at times have been thought to invest too much in administrative or costs extraneous to the goal at hand.

2) Improved flyers and newsletters. This is in no means in disrespect to the fine job Jeff Smith has been doing - the articles are great, but I already get this content - ironically, including Joel Jenson's story and material reprinted from CCRP. More importantly - I assume the magazine, yearbooks and newsletters are extremely
expensive or at least a large part of the budget. If they are to be continued, I'd
VERY MUCH like to see NRHS content.

* I don't want to read about picnics nor slide shows of other chapters - I want to
read about current projects and success stories from those chapters.

* I want to read about what the NRHS has accomplished or is currently working on in regards to preservation.

* I want to know what the NRHS is doing to make this interest of ours more viable, widespread, successful and enjoyable.

* I would like to be kept abreast of as many restorations as possible.

* I would like the option for digital access via the NRHS site - it would be CHEAPER,
provide better content and could be updated with hot news topics. Sail mail could
be offered to those who request (with a surcharge?).

* I'll look for stories on grain elevators, Burlington Northern, and B&W photography in
Railroad & Railfan, Trains, Classic Trains, Railroads Illustrated, TRP, Popular Photography, Fred Miranda.com, ect.

3) Railcamp - Great idea, though I am under a vague impression it's cost far outweigh it's benefits. Why does the program even need subsidies? Are those subsidies coming from our dues or strictly via donations? Bus trips are cool, but there is a lot to be learned simply by attending a few days locally at tourist lines. Maybe a lot more of a little less would be prudent. And I'll admit, I'd love to be able to get access to some of the current events even at cost when divided among enough folks.

4) Museum discounts - Odd, as I don't mind paying full price to support those museums and tourist lines.

5) Paid for articles - I was more then happy to donate a couple of images for use in the NRHS newsletter. Why would I expect payment from such a group?

6) More of a presence:

- Has anyone other then a NRHS member ever heard of the NRHS?
- I just checked the website - it's a start.
- Just checked Facebook - liked by 2 members - a Wiki generated paragraph.

7) More on presence - the web site:
- Could be an option for digital news letters - save a fortune and easier to access.
- How about a larger list of relevant projects?
- A list of all steam locomotive restorations underway.
- A list of all other restorations underway - buildings, signals, freight and passenger
cars, photo archives, ext. With links to projects as available.
- A list of events - both shows, excursions and meetings.
- How about keeping members involved more then once a year at a convention?
- A blog?
- An online catalog of photos and articles broken down by index.
- A photography section or links to various web sites.
- Links to all tourist lines, not just a few museums.
- A friendlier easier to navigate site that is UP TO DATE with links.
- Surely, their is a member willing to donate some time but if not, I would
not object to spending money to keep this portal a welcome entry point
to the association as well as a portal to keep all involved. As is, this
is likely the third time I visited the site.

/Mitch

Positive item #9 - The ALCO photo collection is in disarray. It is and unequal combination of the NRHS, Mohawk & Hudson Chapter (which has 11 members, no meetings, and two NYC electric motors they have allowed to deteriorate), and the City of Syracuse. The collection is a shambles and almost impossible to use.

Try 516 "likes":

https://www.facebook.com/RailPreservation

Granted, there's some unofficial page:

https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid= ... 751&v=wall

And this:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/National ... 0772398818

I've never heard of a perfect answer. Try as you might, you will NEVER get all the members, enthusiasts, etc. united into one format, be it an e-mail list, a website, a Yahoo Group, a Facebook group, a private listserv, etc. At time this hobby looks as disorganized as an Occupy Whatever cluster.

One of my favorite aspects of the NRHS over the last couple years has been the monthly "NRHS News". The 20pp all color "newsletter" has a wide variety of subjects that range from the mundane picnic photographs to Rail Camp to full blown preservation projects.

Just got the December one in the mail today- I see mention of about 14 chapters, five preservation projects (A narrow gaugel flatcar, a depot, and three of steam engines). Other articles include shop tours, picnics, Rail Camp, Heritage grants, and the new NRHS bylaws. In other words, there is enough of diverse content in this monthly newsletter (which is usually on time) to really be of interest to most readers.

A big plus in favor of the National in my estimation!

Matt Bumgarner

A couple of clarifications on Mitch's list of NRHS negatives:

1) Exclusive trips /events for directors
Not sure where that one came from. Trips related to Board of Directors conferences are generally open to the public, although most are very low capacity affairs. Since the directors are, for the most part, paying their own way to the meetings from long distances, they obviously should have dibs on the trips. The general public is usually accommodated on a space-available basis.

2) Excessive time discussing frivolous topics at meetings
This happens when you have a 180 member board of directors. Effective in the fall of 2012 the board will be reduced to 25 members, making meetings much more effective.

10) Rail Camp - high cost, low benefit and "insider's club". *
RailCamp is largely self-sustaining, with just a few overhead expenses. Campers pay probably 90% of the actual cost of RailCamp (that said, some chapters and other organizations sponsor campers -- the last Steamtown camp had 100% sponsored campers -- but these don't come out of national dues). Insider's club? RailCamp is open to all students of the qualifying ages, if you get your tuition in before the camp sells out.

11) Chapters do not get priority with grants.
Chapters don't apply for grants, apparently. Of 35 or so grant applications last year, four came from chapters. Once again, grants do not come from dues money.

13) Excessive staff - since corrected?*
Historically, NRHS has had a paid staff of one secretary, a position eliminated with the move to the administrative support organization. Other than shared personnel at Fernley & Fernley (there are no people dedicated to NRHS full time at F&F), all NRHS personnel are volunteers.

14) Old man's club.
Who you calling old???!!!

16) No central contact /libary.
Both false. F&F answers most national questions via e-mail or phone, and a small research library is maintained at F&F as well. Got a question that needs research? Contact NRHS and they'll try to find the answer in the library. <edit> The research is actually done by NRHS volunteers at F&F's offices.</edit>

17) Poor Internet presence.
True now, but a new website is just around the corner. It's pretty impressive. Wait 'til you see it.